Proposition 8

[Coral]

Well it looks like its passed. I didnt think that would happen, I'm not really sure what to say right now. To the Yes voters, you disgust me. To the No voters, and Im not familiar enough with US law to know but one day we'll be equal.

As this is in the War Room, feel free to debate. Of course, just keep it on topic.

[JValone]

Didn't California pass a similar law a few years ago in a ballot initiative? Or maybe it was a ban, whichever, but I seem to remember hearing something similar a few years back. It doesn't seem like the electorate's stance has changed much over that time. CNN had a big board of various gay rights/abortion initiatives and it was pretty bleak if you were rooting for them with the exception of one of the pro-abortion laws.

I think in all honesty the courts are going to have to figure this particular subject out, and Constitutionally speaking they should side with gay rights groups because there's no precedent to do otherwise. Whether the left likes it or not the majority of the US does not approve of gay marriage, it's a fact and it was proven again yesterday. Activists are going to find a lot more success through the judicial system than they will putting it on a ballot.

[Tanooki]

CA some years ago banned the union of anyone other than a man and woman as illegal. The supreme court of CA shot that down lately which caused this prop to come up which tweaked things to say that 'marriage' is for a man and woman. It's basically a dodge to put the law back on the books.

I think JV has a point, legal process is the way to deal with it and not ballots as most just won't be accepting of this as it has been shoveled as a law. Honestly the only way an equality in marital union type thing could be done where no one would fight it except for the pure haters which then would be a minority is to NOT call it or any union a marriage anymore. By placing everyone on the same footing under a new classification and reserving the 'word' for personal use in a non legal and binding setup would put an end to the crap.

[MR EPIC]

That'll never happen. What's a guy supposed to tell his buddies instead of "I'm about to get married"? "I'm about to enter into a union with my life mate" just doesn't flow as easily.

[JValone]

By making every union a civil union, as Jeff suggested, it makes marriage a privately rather than legally defined term. It's actually a pretty good compromise in my opinion. Christians (and others) who think that marriage is limited to heterosexual couples can go get a meaningless marriage certificate from a church that agrees with their worldview while homosexuals can get an equally meaningless certificate from a church that accepts their beliefs.

It basically circumvents the entire argument by equalizing everyone in reverse. Getting gay couples "marriage" rights is going to be 10x more difficult than re-categorizing all straight couples as "civil unions". And what's worse is it's a pointless word, having equal rights is what matters regardless of what you call it. If anyone holds out for the word "marriage", assuming the option of defining everything as a civil union is actually on the table, that's just splitting hairs imo. Furthermore it's debatable whether the government should have any say in what marriage is defined as. They only need the information for proper documentation anyway, the word has nothing to do with their purpose.

[Lucas]

Yeah, but all the folks against gay marriage enjoy the superiority of unfair treatment. If the government tried to revoke the term "marriage" to create equality, all religious institutions would go up in riots like spoiled little brats across the nation because they aren't getting preferential treatment since their precious Bible tells them that gays and lesbians are dirty rotten sinners who will burn in hell.

California's voters (and especially the out-of-state Mormons who funded this with millions of dollars) have really disgusted me today.

[Tanooki]

Well then riots there shall be, and it's nice to see JV there sees my logic in it. The term isn't sullied by government over governing every piece of life, and everyone can damn well call it what they want, but on gov't paper it's just a union.

[JValone]

I could see some religious organizations flipping out as Lucas said, but I think they would take the pill easier than the alternative which is a court saying "we define marriage, if you don't like this: tough". If the government just flat said that civil unions are strictly used to file couples for tax, medical, insurance, or other legal purposes and marriage was at the discretion of your god I think they might buy into it. Just having the government back down (even if they really aren't) and say that they're no longer in charge of defining a term would mean a lot to certain people like myself who feel their hand is too deep in the cookie jar as is.

[Coral]

The bigots are celebrating. http://www.towleroad.com/2008/11/yes-on-8-bigots.html

[Lovebird]

More importantly is Proposition 2 in Florida.

"This amendment protects marriage as the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife and provides that no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof shall be valid or recognized."

I mean, it's not bad enough that gays can't adopt children here in Florida either, but they can't have any legal ties between them. And not only are gays not allowed to marry, but it destroys domestic partnerships. All domestic partnerships. So in Florida, unless you are married to someone else (hetero) or blood related, you have no legal links at all.

God I really love living in the south, everyone is just so open minded.

BTW, it passed with something like a 69% majority.

[Coral]

A very important message for Yes voters

[virion]

Originally Posted by Lovebird

All domestic partnerships. So in Florida, unless you are married to someone else (hetero) or blood related, you have no legal links at all.

****.. in oklahoma you're common law married if you live with a bitch for atleast 6 months. i could only be so lucky to have no legal ties to a crazy bitch that's trying to ruin my life.

[JValone]

I'm generally dead-set against Olbermann, mainly because he wears a self-righteous sneer throughout his program and is never at a loss for snarky remarks and arrogance. However I've got to say that was an extremely eloquent statement. Regardless of whether you agree with him or not you have to admit he laid out his point of view extremely well, I liked it.

But I still believe if the word "marriage" is the real goal here (and not parity, which could be achieved by knocking everyone down to civil unions) the courts are going to be the hammer that drives home gay marriage. The majority of the American public is just not for it, whether you disagree with their beliefs or not it's just a fact. I figure we'll get a landmark Supreme Court case sometime within the next decade opening up the term to everyone, not as good having it now obviously but it's better late than never.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Olbermann's a very intelligent man, and his special comments are usually pretty amazing. This one in particular is especially excellent, so props to Keith.

[Tanooki]

This is one of the rare times Olbermann actually has made sense, dropped his self gratifying sneer, and wasn't being a douche either. This has to be the perfect storm/trifecta of him on TV never to be likely seen again.

And JV you're right it's the courts that'll end this at the Supreme Court level surely under Obama. Depending how the balance of power sits over his 4 years or so will probably tilt which way it goes. We'll see doing the right thing and calling all joinings of any two people a civil union on legal paper and reserving marriage as a personal term, or the lib cranks will with smug 'justice' do it the wrong way and force it down everyones throat as is which will likely kickoff a hell of a lot of protests or worse with as many who are so fervently against using the word, not the will to allow those to just be joined equally. Either way it'll end, one way will end ugly.