Seriously you're being a complete ass, but considering where you're from and your warped sense of entitlement it doesn't surprise me let alone probably anyone else here either.
Any society has a bit of socialism in it, it has to, or various parts of the government and land will cease to function. Morons like you want a nanny state where everything is a given right and entitlement off the backs of everyone, though if you make more than the next guy than a good bit more out of you too to be fair. Damn I hate people who just want everyone ponying up everything so your shit can be free.
Even if every single economic consideration didn't make UHC a better choice (they do), simple cost wouldn't make UHC a worse option. Any society that doesn't value the life and welfare of it's citizens above the ability of the well off to glut themselves on endless quantities of consumer goods is sick and diseased itself.
If you are against healthcare for everyone, the poor and needy included, you have lost touch with your common humanity. You are an aberration, you have set yourself apart as being outside society and the human community, but still demand a say in how it is run, so as it to enrich yourself at the expense of the suffering of others. You speak of productivity and point to the numbers in your bank account as validation of your worth as a human. You make the rich richer and laud yourself for your contribution to the great society of wealth. You are able to dehumanize others, turning them into abstract concepts beneath your concern by labeling them as lazy, useless, or otherwise unworthy of notice because they don't assist you to enrich yourselves and their existence helps invalidate the house-of-cards framework of justifications you've built up to allow your human conscience to excuse this atrocity. To accept that these are real people, with real lives, hopes, dreams, families and friends - to accept that whatever their circumstances, their situation may not be entirely their own fault - to accept the corollary of this, that your station in life is not the sole result of of your efforts - to accept that even if the destitute underclasses are there by their own doing, they are still human beings entitled to respect and dignity regardless - to do any of this would mean that the entire system of sink or swim free enterprise is flawed, and your own successes therefore not the pure well deserved reward for a life lived superior to others. So you will instead invent reasons and excuses to divest yourself of your humanity and your connection to others, quietly waiting for the day when you die, clutching your treasures to your chest as you are lowered into the dark earth. Forever removed from the human race you have scorned, a bodiless whisper as you slip into the void "yes... I kept it. I kept it all. gently caress you.. I've got mine.. forever"
Die swiftly. You are an outsider to the community of humanity, and the world will be enriched by your passing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EPIC
I do not know why it says Rogue's post was edited by me but I did not touch his in the slightest.
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.
I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.
On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
__________________
'i want to be able to stick my fist in your mouth and feel all 32.'
'give me a minute and i'll change your mind. give me a bullet and i'll change your life.'
I missed the part where Rogue's post addressed any of the points myself and others brought up, as well as where it justified resorting to sweeping generalizations about opponents of the current legislation under debate. Keep on bringing up counter-examples to arguments we haven't made, though.
EDIT: Btw, government involvement =/= socialism. You're only lending credence to the Republican "It's Socialism!" argument if you use it that way.
You still haven't explained away any of the problems with the current healthcare bills being proposed in the House or Senate.
Bravo in proving that socialism has its benefits, but that was never the issue here. A majority of Americans are in favor of the public option, and a significant amount even favor a single-payer system, but that's not actually what we are getting and that is precisely the problem. I will not be allowed to sign up for a public option because I'm not impoverished enough according to even the best healthcare bill. My enormous wealth has not kept me from piling up $20k in debt to the NC university system, nor has it kept either of my parents from working constantly the past year just to barely make ends meet. If one of my kidneys failed tomorrow, or I needed an emergency heart procedure, my family would have to drum up tens of thousands of dollars overnight or go into crippling debt. With the proposed healthcare bills this ugly reality will not change. So, basically, the vast majority of Americans are still totally screwed.
And as for the "poor" (a term that is as narrowly defined as possible in these bills so as to all but neutralize the public option) I have no reason to believe they will see any significant benefit either. What makes you believe the insurance companies that are inflating these costs to put care out of their reach now are going to suddenly give them a fair deal? What makes you so certain there is no catch that will nullify most if not all of the hypothetical positives here? Was it the banks or the poor people being thrown out of their homes that were given aid when our economy went into a downward spiral? Was it the car companies or all the employees they put on the street with little hope of finding a decent job that the government gave aid to when that industry tanked? So now that the insurance companies clearly have a hand on the pen in the writing of this bill what exactly leads you to believe this instance will be different?
I love your "well, you'll get a little and then everyone will switch over because it's better!" logic, except for how there is zero chance it will work that way in reality. You know why? Because everyone who wants to switch over can't, and we're asking too, practically screaming at the top of our lungs for it, and our goddamn "public servants" would rather take that insurance money than help their constituents. The fucking bill is written in such a way so that your scenario can never even happen without a complete rewrite.
But here's the kicker. The Democrats will wave this bundle of empty promises around like they accomplished something and get reelected in 2010, but by 2012 the same people that are dying because they can't afford care will still be dying. The same people that are going bankrupt due to exorbitant fees will still be going bankrupt, and who are they going to blame you think? Barack Obama, that's who. So we'll get a Republican running the show again, which rules out any chance of this issue being done correctly within the next 7 years minimum. Maybe even 11 if they can put together another war and get everyone to vote with their nationalism instead of their brains.
There is not a single progressive who loves this bill. There are only a handful that will even give it the slightest bit of praise. The only ones who are in favor of it are people like Pelosi and Reid who realize they don't have the conviction to turn against their masters and do it right, so they can at least get something out of this in 2010 and worry about the sick people down the road, if ever.
Why is it that when Bush demands a war that makes no sense he can force it through? Why is it when Bush/Obama reward the banks/corporations for their failure while leaving the actual human beings of their labor force out in the cold, when such a move does not even have approval from the majority of our population, they can just force it through? But when we actually need to get some important shit done Obama, Mr. Change We Can Believe In, just stands there like a bitch and acts like he can't shove it down Congress' bribe-choked throat. This healthcare "reform" is as big a fraud as our President and both of these problems are going to get hammered in 2012 as a result. The sad thing is the GOP will make it even worse, so big yay for the two party system. Barack Obama has one shot at this, the only real shot we'll have for possibly decades to come, and he's blowing it worse than I could have possibly imagined. I'm not sure if he really doesn't think this will bite him in the ass come relelection time, or maybe he just thinks his celebrity will carry him regardless. Either way he's a coward.
This country disgusts me. It's a plutonomy, not a republic. $40 billion in new business for the private sector and the majority of Americans still with inadequate coverage. God bless America. There is not a single logical reason to support any of this, Rogue. It's just a placebo.
Even if every single economic consideration didn't make UHC a better choice (they do), simple cost wouldn't make UHC a worse option. Any society that doesn't value the life and welfare of it's citizens above the ability of the well off to glut themselves on endless quantities of consumer goods is sick and diseased itself.
If you are against healthcare for everyone, the poor and needy included, you have lost touch with your common humanity. You are an aberration, you have set yourself apart as being outside society and the human community, but still demand a say in how it is run, so as it to enrich yourself at the expense of the suffering of others. You speak of productivity and point to the numbers in your bank account as validation of your worth as a human. You make the rich richer and laud yourself for your contribution to the great society of wealth. You are able to dehumanize others, turning them into abstract concepts beneath your concern by labeling them as lazy, useless, or otherwise unworthy of notice because they don't assist you to enrich yourselves and their existence helps invalidate the house-of-cards framework of justifications you've built up to allow your human conscience to excuse this atrocity. To accept that these are real people, with real lives, hopes, dreams, families and friends - to accept that whatever their circumstances, their situation may not be entirely their own fault - to accept the corollary of this, that your station in life is not the sole result of of your efforts - to accept that even if the destitute underclasses are there by their own doing, they are still human beings entitled to respect and dignity regardless - to do any of this would mean that the entire system of sink or swim free enterprise is flawed, and your own successes therefore not the pure well deserved reward for a life lived superior to others. So you will instead invent reasons and excuses to divest yourself of your humanity and your connection to others, quietly waiting for the day when you die, clutching your treasures to your chest as you are lowered into the dark earth. Forever removed from the human race you have scorned, a bodiless whisper as you slip into the void "yes... I kept it. I kept it all. gently caress you.. I've got mine.. forever"
Die swiftly. You are an outsider to the community of humanity, and the world will be enriched by your passing.
If I quit my job today, will you pay for my food, housing, and healthcare? Sounds like I don't need to do anything, since aparently it's the job of every other human to take care of me.
Oh, but if I'm not doing my job then I'm not taking care of others, right?
But, really. Why should I if you're going to take care of me anyway, you generous people, you?
If I quit my job today, will you pay for my food, housing, and healthcare? Sounds like I don't need to do anything, since aparently it's the job of every other human to take care of me.
Oh, but if I'm not doing my job then I'm not taking care of others, right?
But, really. Why should I if you're going to take care of me anyway, you generous people, you?
If you were Canadian, I would be. Our taxes go towards homeless shelters, being Canadian means UHC which my taxes go towards, and food stamps would also be provided.
That assumes you had nothing to begin with/almost nothing. If you lost a job, you could qualify for Unemployment Insurance and basically get 50% of what you were getting for a full year. During that year, there are also many services provided by the government where you can learn more skills to improve your chances of landing a job.
All of that is provided by our taxes. I am perfectly fine with the knowledge that my taxes are going towards helping others. They're not 'welfare queens', they're human fucking beings. Oh my god, I have the ability to feel empathy and compassion for my fellow man. I guess that makes me Karl Fucking Marx.
Also, I'm not addressing the points brought up by JV or Lizz simply because there's no point. I know full well the bill is not UHC, not even close, but it's still closer than what you currently have. And, to be honest, it's still better than what you currently have. You two know plenty about the topic already, I'm really going after Jeff and Sean here over their Libertarian bullshit.
Quick question to Jeff or Sean: Would you ever want your tax dollars going towards saving the life of another person besides yourself?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR EPIC
I do not know why it says Rogue's post was edited by me but I did not touch his in the slightest.
But the bill actually makes it more difficult for true UHC to be passed in the future, that is the biggest threat it poses. If it were simply watered-down without any caveats or additional clauses that made it more difficult for further reform I would not be nearly as opposed.
The insurance companies are banking on well-meaning people saying "well, it's still a little better, certainly better than nothing" and taking the bait by not fighting the crooked Congress quite so hard. As soon as they do we're cornered and that's it, no more worrying about the people standing up on this issue for awhile. I'm afraid that scenario is all but guaranteed now though, which is sad.
But the bill actually makes it more difficult for true UHC to be passed in the future, that is the biggest threat it poses. If it were simply watered-down without any caveats or additional clauses that made it more difficult for further reform I would not be nearly as opposed.
^this.
I swear, Canada looks a little better every day. Not so much a scathing comment either. I've actually considered moving there a couple of times.
Quick question to Jeff or Sean: Would you ever want your tax dollars going towards saving the life of another person besides yourself?
They already have, but to put it bluntly: My tax dollars shouldn't go to saving my life, as that's what my personal savings accounts should be used for. Nor should they go to saving someone else's life, as I already donate to charities and volunteer within my community giving my time and money. Why then should more of my money be forcibly taken (and thus more of my time, as that was spent earning that money) to pay for someone else? If I don't want to take the hand-out, why should I pay for it, and then be forced to take it? I'm so sorry that I don't want DMV-style healthcare.
If I'm going to work hard for something, I expect to see the fruits of my effort. If I'm just going to have it all taxed in the name of 'fairness', so I'm now down to the level of someone not putting in nearly as much effort, why the hell should I keep trying?
Edit: Also, calling me a Libertarian is laughable. You'll piss-off Liz calling me that.
Edit 2: Germany's looking more appealing as UHC gets closer. 'Cause really, we'd be so much more similar that it wouldn't really matter if I moved.
Edit 3: Do I flat-out not support some sort of healthcare improvement? Of course not, but I think it needs to be an actual improvement for EVERYONE, rather than a punishment to some. What works in other countries isn't going to work here without some MAJOR changes. How about letting each state decide? None of this opt-out of the Federal care bullshit, but having it state by state. Oregon's got it. They've also got shit-high taxes compared to Nevada (no state income tax, bitches). That way California can pass it and be even more broke than they already are, other states can pass it and tax the shit out of their residents, and those who would rather not be punched in the balls financially for something they might not even need can be in states that don't bother with it.
The "Opt-Out" bullshit Harry Reid (God, I'm ashamed he's my Senator) mentioned would still tax the fuck out of you, regardless of whether or not your state opted out. It'd be like a state saying they're opting out of highway funding, but they still pay taxes towards highways.
Wow I was going to put a big old post there to the personal question but Sean has it covered, as he said NO, and those are good reasons I would have put myself why. I'm no libertarian either, just Liz is. I'm not republican either, conservative fits though.
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