Miyamoto: "I Believe Casual Gamers Do Get into Hardcore Games"

[MR EPIC]

Kombo article (http://wii.kombo.com/article.php?artid=13249)

The newest issue of the Official Nintendo Magazine sees Shigeru Miyamoto speak once again about gamers both casual and hardcore, with his belief that those of the former will eventually move on to the latter, with his very wife serving as an example.

"I think it's a natural transition. Everyone starts off as a light user but at some point many of them become hardcore gamers. My wife bought Brain Training about three years ago. In More Brain Training, you know how there is the Dr. Mario game? She became absolutely hooked and today she is much better than I am!"

And as to the distinction between the two?

"When I hear that kind of discussion, I wonder if there really is such a distinction.
There are many hardcore gamers playing with casual games and I believe casual gamers do get into hardcore Nintendo games too. I think one of Nintendo's missions is to destroy the barrier between the two and I believe Wii Music contributes that." -- Shigeru Miyamoto, to the Official Nintendo Magazine, via Nintendo Everything


I personally rolled my eyes at these suggestions. Casual gamers do not become hardcore gamers and there is a huge distinction between the two types. Sad to see that my all-time favorite game designer is becoming a PR bull**** artist. I certainly hope he doesn't believe what he's saying.

[Nismo]

He must be smoking some new **** down from Indonesia cause he has been saying the most retarded crap ever lately.

[Sascha-AMN]

There's definitely a difference between the two camps, but I agree with him that people can cross back-and-forth between the two categories.

I think the problem is that Nintendo is only helping to increase the divide between the two camps by creating games specifically for casual gamers. What was a casual gamer back on the NES and SNES? Someone who played Mario every so often? Ok, then what was a hardcore gamer? Someone who played Super Mario every day, trying to collect everything? Someone who played Mario, and Castlevania, and Ninja Gaiden, and Final Fantasy? There were casual gamers that only played Final Fantasy every so often too.

The fact is, way back when, casual gamers were just people that played hardcore games less often, or less seriously. Hardcore gamers played more games, more seriously, more hours per week. There was no idea that some games were designed for one camp, and some games were designed for another.

So whereas years ago, the transition from casual to hardcore just meant stumbling across the game, franchise or genre that captured your imagination and playing the hell out of it (and then finding other games like it), Nintendo has created a bigger gap for these people to cross. Now if someone gets into games playing Wii Sports, they have to someone find their way out of the 'casual games' camp and pick up a copy of Madden or something, which is aimed directly at hardcore gamers.

Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft have no initiatives in place to help casual gamers across that gap, so they're basically stuck playing in their casual games pool until someone drags them kicking and screaming into the hardcore pool.

[MR EPIC]

I agree with much of what you said Sascha but I'm also inclined to believe that there are at least two types of casual gamers nowadays. There are those who use Wii for games like Wii Sports and Carnival Games and then there are those that buy a 360 but play nothing more than Halo or Gears of War. The latter group is similar to those who bought a PS2 last generation just to play either Madden or GTA. That group is also much more likely to become more of a hardcore gamer that frequents gaming forums and spends hours a day playing, rather than the previous group who treats gaming as if it were a board game.

[DEATHSTAR]

Sascha that was a good post! Casual gamers have always existed but there was no obvious distinction and no company was catering to them specifically until this gen.

[thegamecubist]

I agree with Sascha on this. The divide now is, ironically making it harder to get into hardcore games. At least before people might have already had the game; now you're asking people to go from Wii Music to playing TTFAF on expert. Probably not happening!

[Tanooki]

Wow good job missing the point there Epic. :)

His entire train of logic is that a casual gamer can get into a hardcore Nintendo title and like it. Why is that worth an eye roll exactly? His entire argument is summed up in one of his sentences: There are many hardcore gamers playing with casual games and I believe casual gamers do get into hardcore Nintendo games too.

This is factually true. Many of those casuals if they're exposed to what would be considered a 'hardcore Nintendo title' could likely get into them if they liked the taste they got. Is it so nuts to think someone who got Wii Sports with their system may suddenly trust the Nintendo brand itself (1st party) and may try something that is core and looks friendly like a Mario game, Wario Land/Ware, Mario Kart or Sluggers? I think they could.

I think the lot of you so far are just looking in terms of black and white and kind of picking on the guy for what he said. The entire argument was that a casual new player could get into a hardcore Nintendo game, and the potential is very much there. I will give the last few quoted sentences were dumb and a pitch with Wii Music as there's nothing any-core about that tragedy. But, the point he raised with his wife going from lame brain games to kicking his ass in Dr Mario is a nice showing someone can get hardcore from starting casual. I see the PS2 argument there and the Xbox one too, yah you got those who will only do Halo and Madden, but considering how much time they drop into those games they'd be seriously hardcore gamers on that style game. You don't have to waste 20%+ of your waking life hitting multiple genres and owning them to be hardcore.

Hell here's a fun example with Epic again. He always does claim that GoW owns him and he's like near the best. Let's pretend that you no longer have any other games other than a handful (say like 1-2 a years worth) and you put like 90% of your gaming time into GoW. With all that effort you'd be like god of GoW for sure online and off. Now...we got two ways to look at this. Are you a casual gamer now because you basically buy little and got damn good at one game? Or are you a hardcore gamer that'll kick the crap out of anyone in GoW because of the dedication? I think even these questions show the entire 'coreness' of a gamer argument is CRAP.

[SpaceOddity]

I'd say there is definitely casual gamers that cross into "hardcore games" and I think that Nintendo infact offers these bridge games like Kart and Galaxy. Is it all PR bull****? I mean maybe, but I've seen non-gamers (my parents and extended family) become casual gamers and those with more access to my console (gf etc) transition from casual into hardcore games. Before wii she never played a videogame, she started out on wiisports/warioware and moved onto Call of Duty and No More Heroes.

[MR EPIC]

Hell here's a fun example with Epic again. He always does claim that GoW owns him and he's like near the best. Let's pretend that you no longer have any other games other than a handful (say like 1-2 a years worth) and you put like 90% of your gaming time into GoW. With all that effort you'd be like god of GoW for sure online and off. Now...we got two ways to look at this. Are you a casual gamer now because you basically buy little and got damn good at one game? Or are you a hardcore gamer that'll kick the crap out of anyone in GoW because of the dedication? I think even these questions show the entire 'coreness' of a gamer argument is CRAP.

Oh, I'm nowhere near the best but I'm a pretty good all around Gears player. I do agree with this point too and that is why in my second post I mentioned that there are two types of casual gamers this generation: Those who specifically focus on casual games and those who play hardcore games with casual habits.

The thing that made me roll my eyes about Miyamoto's comment is that I think he's lost sight of what a hardcore game is. I don't consider too many of Nintendo's IPs to be hardcore any longer. Not Animal Crossing, Not Mario Baseball, hell not even Mario really. When we think of hardcore games we're talking about most of the stuff on the 360. So looking at it in that perspective, yes it's insane to think of mom and dad shifting from Wii Fit to all night sessions of Bio-Shock, Assassin's Creed, or CoD4.

[Tanooki]

AC was never hard core, hated they started to use that stupid term to combat comments. I can't comment on the baseball one really as I've never bothered as I feared I'd get tired of it fast as it lacks the variety of mario golf. Mario Galaxy though is, especially if you go beyond the minimum to see the basic ending. Ultimately you're making my point though because he said clearly 'nintendo hard core games' and their IPs mostly are, and thsoe they see people jumping to after being motivated by wii sports and the like which is great. People like that slowly bend over time and may end up moving into a 'The Conduit' or a Halo game or something.

[Coral]

I think theres more than one type of casual, and more than one type of hardcore. Theres the Rachet and Clank PS2 casual gamer, and the Wii Fit casual gamer. Theres a gears or Halo or CoD player, and theres the same person who plays more than just those, comes online, debates, etc. Theres also the casual gamer, who likes to come online and debate too. Why? I dont know.


Miyamoto is out of touch. He thinks Dr. Mario and Galaxy are hardcore. They may get hard at later levels, but imo those are in-between games. *flashback to the the Galaxy commercials with a kid controlling mario, and mom pointing at the useless stars* roffle

=) Hi Erik. Pwn u'z in PDZ?

[SpaceOddity]

I guess hardcore means stereotypically masculine or what a 14 year old deems "badass" because that seems to be the definition around here.

[Smokey]

He must be smoking some new **** down from Indonesia cause he has been saying the most retarded crap ever lately.

Well, check him out.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/nintendo/en/images/thumb/5/57/Miyamoto1.jpg/180px-Miyamoto1.jpg

Doesn't this look like the face of a person that says retarded ****?

Also, shouldn't this be in the Nintendo Discussion, with it being about Miyamoto?

[Darc Requiem]

Yes there were no obvious casual games back in day but there was no need. The Atari and the NES has one and two button controllers. I taught my dad how to play Super Mario Bros in less than half an hour. Tecmo Bowl could be picked up in a matter of minutes.

Most hardcore games of today aren't so easy to grasp for the uninitiated. I think some of us than have been gaming for years loss sight of how complex the games we pick up in no time are. I rarely ever even look at, let alone read, my instruction manuals.

[DEATHSTAR]

^All valid points, but now even the most complex games have in game prompts and tutorials that have taken the place of manuals. Some games have entire intial levels devoted to "training". I think complexity has been addressed fairly well and most games have more accessibility then games of generations before.

I pointed this out long ago... but I think the 3D perspective (and controlling the camera or right analog stick) is more of a barrier to crossover gamers than anything else. New gamers all have trouble with the perspective and controlling two axis more than anything else when I watch them pick up the paddles.

[Dr. Teeth]

You can't fault the man for trying to move the industry forward, which is something he has done for the past 25 years. Believe me, I'm the first person to get on a tirade about Nintendo's new direction, but at least they are not trying to dish out one crap sequel after another, and sacrificing creativity in the process, like a lot of developers catering to the so-called "hardcore" are doing these days.

A lot of us hate Wii Fit and Wii Music, but until Wii's stop selling like hotcakes - Nintendo is going to continue giving the majority of its consumers what they want.

[Nismo]

Believe it or not, I believe the Wii has fallen down from being a sell-out now to selling at a normal pace. Almost every single retailer I've hit in the past month have Wii's out on the floor stacked to my height. Granted this holiday pretty much all of them will sell, but it's finally nice to see them in stock and selling at a normal pace for any family who wants one that doesn't have one.

[MR EPIC]

^All valid points, but now even the most complex games have in game prompts and tutorials that have taken the place of manuals. Some games have entire intial levels devoted to "training". I think complexity has been addressed fairly well and most games have more accessibility then games of generations before.

I have to disagree with this. Sure many new games have in game prompts and on-screen tutorials, but I think that just irritates core gamers more than it helps the noobs. I don't think any amount of in game help is going to make a casual or non-gamer feel ready to sit behind the dashboard of a Steel Battalion game or feel comfortable pulling off Ryu's 100+ moves in DoA4. My point: Games today in large part are overly complicated.

I pointed this out long ago... but I think the 3D perspective (and controlling the camera or right analog stick) is more of a barrier to crossover gamers than anything else. New gamers all have trouble with the perspective and controlling two axis more than anything else when I watch them pick up the paddles.

This I agree with because I've seen it with my own eyes. My buddies who used to be excellent 8-16 bit gamers look like they're playing with their feet when they grab hold of the dual analog sticks.

[Tanooki]

Damn right much of the games today are overly complicated that's for certain between a 3D worth of axises to work with and 10+ button controllers it has gotten a bit out of control... hell some games have a button used as a toggle to use another two double your misery.

In the 2d era you had your 6 buttons or less, typically most used 1/2 that to get the job done or less on the even older stuff. All the games were at a point both casual and non-casual really, but it was really how much you cared to apply yourself. Sure you had your gameshow and kids stuff with Sesame Street that would really fit that casual mold, but most stuff wasn't so sadist complicated a normal person wouldn't at least take a whack at it. These days the only real home to that consistently is the Wii where your pointer has made it as easy as a NES pad fundimentally, or at worst SNES which is fine.

Can't add much but Teeth really hit it there with his post and wanted to acknowledge that.

[DEATHSTAR]

You can't fault the man for trying to move the industry forward, which is something he has done for the past 25 years. Believe me, I'm the first person to get on a tirade about Nintendo's new direction, but at least they are not trying to dish out one crap sequel after another, and sacrificing creativity in the process, like a lot of developers catering to the so-called "hardcore" are doing these days.

A lot of us hate Wii Fit and Wii Music, but until Wii's stop selling like hotcakes - Nintendo is going to continue giving the majority of its consumers what they want.

How many Mario, Zelda, Pikmin, SSB and Metroid sequels do they have left before we consider titles in those franchises "dishing out crap sequel after another"? :)

I have to disagree with this. Sure many new games have in game prompts and on-screen tutorials, but I think that just irritates core gamers more than it helps the noobs. I don't think any amount of in game help is going to make a casual or non-gamer feel ready to sit behind the dashboard of a Steel Battalion game or feel comfortable pulling off Ryu's 100+ moves in DoA4. My point: Games today in large part are overly complicated.

Irritating core gamers is besides the point, the tutorials are there for people that don't know how to play. Whether or not the developer makes them optional is another topic. Steel Battalion is probably the worst case scenario for any class of gamer, **** I probably couldn't even figure that game out. My point was to Darc's on having to read the instruction manuals etc. which is all in game now. I think they do a decent job at attempting to educate those who need it.

Bigger problem is 3D and the fact that most in game tutorials are in games that crossover gamers aren't likely to touch in the first place.

Damn right much of the games today are overly complicated that's for certain between a 3D worth of axises to work with and 10+ button controllers it has gotten a bit out of control... hell some games have a button used as a toggle to use another two double your misery.

In the 2d era you had your 6 buttons or less, typically most used 1/2 that to get the job done or less on the even older stuff.

2 Buttons on todays controller are 90-100% dedicated to controlling the camera, so there are truly only 2 buttons added when we lept to 3D.

[MikeWolfskin]

Wait sense when was DR Mario a casual game called Hardcore? LMFAO not even close, his wife has gone from None gamer to New gamer to casual gamer and likely will not play to Hardcore gamers.

[Darc Requiem]

In game prompts aren't going to anything for the uninitiated Deathstar. Today's game or so complex someone new to gaming are just going to be lost. Today's games aren't jump on the enemies, jump over the pit, and head right any more. Showing one someone the mechanics and showing them how to play aren't necessary the same thing.

[Monkeylord]

Wait sense when was DR Mario a casual game called Hardcore? LMFAO not even close, his wife has gone from None gamer to New gamer to casual gamer and likely will not play to Hardcore gamers.

It's all in how the game is played. Are you trying to say that all puzzle games are casual?

If he said that his wife plays Dr. Mario for 4hrs a day without fail, I'd say that's pretty hardcore.




This is why I HATE the labels "Hardcore" and "Casual".

[virion]

was miyamoto saying brain age is a casual game and dr. mario is a hardcore game. that's a joke. people who think games like wario world and pokemon battle masters or whatever is hardcore games are dumb.

[thegamecubist]

Wait sense when was DR Mario a casual game called Hardcore? LMFAO not even close, his wife has gone from None gamer to New gamer to casual gamer and likely will not play to Hardcore gamers.

DDR Mario Mix is pretty easy, but if you could play on Super Hard I'd call you more than just a casual player.

[DEATHSTAR]

In game prompts aren't going to anything for the uninitiated Deathstar. Today's game or so complex someone new to gaming are just going to be lost. Today's games aren't jump on the enemies, jump over the pit, and head right any more. Showing one someone the mechanics and showing them how to play aren't necessary the same thing.

Mechanics are pretty much all there is to ANY game, once you learn the tools of a given game it's up to your own imagination, cognitive thinking and problem solving to employ those mechanics in a useful manner to play the game.

This is exactly why someone can be super smart but not be good at certain games and visa versa. The game can show what each button does or context but the gamer is going to have to push those buttons regardless of how many of them there are. There's only one way to be initiated into almost anyting... Practice!

Games created for "non/casual gamers" attempt to shield the players from ever failing and I think that's just as much a turn-off as the complexity in itself.

And I'm not saying in game tutorials are the end all, but they do attempt to address the issue whether experienced gamers like to admit it or not.

[MikeWolfskin]

It's all in how the game is played. Are you trying to say that all puzzle games are casual?

If he said that his wife plays Dr. Mario for 4hrs a day without fail, I'd say that's pretty hardcore.




This is why I HATE the labels "Hardcore" and "Casual".

Yes Puzzle games are all Casual deal with it. It's not the difficulty alone that makes it hardcore it's the style of how is made.

[Tanooki]

Wow this topic has eroded into a childish war over how one elitist snob views 'hardcore' vs another...sickening and should hit the war room fairly soon. :(

Hardcore is a joke term and all. It's just a crutch for the gaming elite to get down on the rest of the community at large for not being so damn involved into games in general or a few games to such an extreme they're a master at it. It's awful it breaks down into this crap as it's just bs plain and simple.

Back in the day when the game was fresh for instance, under the term of 'hardcore' two things would have really fit the mold on the NES... Tetris and Dr Mario. Anyone could get into it as you needed a d-pad and a button to do it, but for someone who could commit an hour a day many days a week they'd get excellent at it, very good, could work most people over. Now though something like that as virion and mikes err interesting posts show, it's just not that good enough to be 'hardcore' anymore, not advanced enough or whatever. It's all perception really, and hardcore itself is crap...there are no hardcore games, just hardcore game players who just tear the crap out of a few games or a lot of games and get to where they can kick most peoples asses. I see that as the argument that Miyamoto made there about his wife. She started doing Brain Age and worked into being able to kick his experienced ass at his own game Dr Mario, that should say a lot to many. I guess is Dr Mario had tits, blood, cursing, and maybe mauling down a hooker it could be more hardcore to certain people than it does now eh? It doesn't take all that and the used of dual analogs and 8+ buttons to be hardcore experience you know.

[MR EPIC]

Games created for "non/casual gamers" attempt to shield the players from ever failing and I think that's just as much a turn-off as the complexity in itself.

It might be a turn-off for you and I but not for the casual or especially the non-gamer. They're in it just to have some quick fun for a short time and then be done with it. Much like that board game comparison that Sega rep made last month.

Mike - Dr. Mario is not a hardcore game but if somebody plays it all day long everyday they could be classified as a hardcore gamer. Just the same as somebody who plays GTA once a week could be seen as a casual gamer.

[DEATHSTAR]

It might be a turn-off for you and I but not for the casual or especially the non-gamer. They're in it just to have some quick fun for a short time and then be done with it. Much like that board game comparison that Sega rep made last month.

Mike - Dr. Mario is not a hardcore game but if somebody plays it all day long everyday they could be classified as a hardcore gamer. Just the same as somebody who plays GTA once a week could be seen as a casual gamer.

That one sentence was in context to the 2 paragraphs preceeding it. I wasn't speaking of myself but of the "joe-gamers" out there. :) The point was removing all challenge to the point of flaw is just as bad as a complex game. A shooting gallery with static targets as wide as your field of vision would only be so much fun regardless of the class of gamer we're talking about. Don't you agree?

Games have become more complex but they've also become increasingly easier and shorter in proportion. So I think cross-over gamers have always been on the industry's mind long before we started singling them out this gen.

* Some titles/genres would be exceptions to this obviously.

[Dr. Teeth]

I think the only point Miyamoto is making is that Dr. Mario is a "core gamer" variant of the casual puzzle game.

And Deathstar, my count shows 2 Pikmin and 3 Smash Bros games released in the last decade. By comparison, Call of Duty has had 10 games released since 2003.

I don't think any of us can really in our heart of hearts suggest that true Mario and Zelda games have been degraded by the release of "crap sequels." I think those two names were significant reasons why any of us bought a Wii.

[MikeWolfskin]

It might be a turn-off for you and I but not for the casual or especially the non-gamer. They're in it just to have some quick fun for a short time and then be done with it. Much like that board game comparison that Sega rep made last month.

Mike - Dr. Mario is not a hardcore game but if somebody plays it all day long everyday they could be classified as a hardcore gamer. Just the same as somebody who plays GTA once a week could be seen as a casual gamer.

Negative, that title is not Hardcore and that person is not Hardcore, because he is not playing "Many" Hardcore titles for ""Meany hours", with "Epic, Divine complex rich storylines"! Your talking about if a player is Hardcore or if a game is hardcore. There very "different".

Playing a puzzle game for hours on end doesn't help you understand anyone's personality, or make you fill as if your the character in the game and there fore your not hardcore for playing a casual game longer. Where as a Puzzle game will always remain simple, not complex in storyline and there fore is not a Hardcore title! Like drug they each do one thing only, a Casual drug is going to cast casual on you, and Hardcore drug will cast Hardcore on you!

"Begin hardcore is playing rich, epic, divine, breathtaking complex storylines with good gaming elements, near boundless out of this world music, in the form of many Hardcore styled games for endless hours to understand that personalty, or to experiences emotions that might make your cry or bend you to believe that which is not real is real because of storyline!"

^ That is something Puzzle games will never do!

[MR EPIC]

There's only one way to say this Mike: You're being a complete idiot on this subject.

[MikeWolfskin]

There's only one way to say this Mike: You're being a complete idiot on this subject.

I've won because you have nothing more to say aside from something that cheap! Epic, Divine complex rich storylines are hardcore, your enjoyment in puzzle games or online death mach, never ending Online MMO's are fake and not hardcore. I think your fools, so I agree to disagree.

Of coarse you guys think your enjoyment make you hardcore but your missing the point the storyline that tricks you into thinking it's real is the best enjoyment. That is whats hardcore!

World of Watercraft has no ending, no point,it's casual, it's like just standing there and saying "Nice day huh?", then a few minutes later you repeat your self's by saying "Nice day huh?".Then I'm all like, "How boring can't you say anything aside from nice day?".

Thats how I see it, conflict makes the game epic with out rich divine, breathtaking storyline there is no conflict, nothing is worth crying for, noting worth smiling over, nothing more then Nice day huh" to say in a fails temporary enjoyment. Like some Matrix that fools you to believing your smiling or happy it's fails no matter how you look at it!

My enjoyment is real it's emotion, it has point, it changes, it's not fails! It's real!

[MR EPIC]

Mike you're so full of **** because many games in the 8 bit generation and before had no stories at all and they were much more hardcore than half the crap that's out nowadays.

[MikeWolfskin]

Mike you're so full of **** because many games in the 8 bit generation and before had no stories at all and they were much more hardcore than half the crap that's out nowadays.

This is where you I myself disagree as do other members of this forum. You believe that games today are worst I think there far better! Your talking about the Hardcore of generations ago and where talking about Hardcore which has evolved and will keep evolving.

Think about it like art you start off bad and as you do it more you get better because of your hard work. Games of that generation's did the best they where able to but games today can do much more and have more freedom to show off there storylines in a more complex manner.

[MR EPIC]

There are plenty of games like World of Goo, De Blob, War Hawk, Katamari Damacy, and a million others that don't have rich, complex storylines. You're argument is first of all biased and second of all based solely on your personal opinion. You're just stuck in RPG land and are basing everything off of that.

[MikeWolfskin]

There are plenty of games like World of Goo, De Blob, War Hawk, Katamari Damacy, and a million others that don't have rich, complex storylines. You're argument is first of all biased and second of all based solely on your personal opinion.

Not truth, no storyline means the game can not be defined by the words Epic, unless someone is lying about what Epic really means.

After all I've come up with I was hopping for a much better fight but you've disappointed me. You took all that time to end your post with it's your opinion, how lame.

Come on give in and join me and together we'll be amazing. Mwahahahaha! If not at lest give me a good word fight better then boring old your opinion.

Look at it like Hardcore is a wife your most loved one who dies. She is your everything you'd do anything for her. Then you come up with a way to travel to a different universe where she is alive. She is enjoyment and in a way is her who is dead but in realty she is not her, she may look like her, she might fall in love with you again,she might not, but no matter how you look at your loved one is dead and this one is fails. She is the casual gamer title because she is temporary enjoyment.

[virion]

i can see both sides of this argument. although i don't believe simple puzzle games and such to ever be viewed as hardcore, i can still see the flipside.. like.. if you know someone who's a badass on a pogostick he's hardcore. atleast on a pogostick. as well as a penis probably but that's another story.

[Monkeylord]

Aaaaaand, this thread is now in the War Room.


Look at it like Hardcore is a wife your most loved one who dies. She is your everything you'd do anything for her. Then you come up with a way to travel to a different universe where she is alive. She is enjoyment and in a way is her who is dead but in realty she is not her, she may look like her, she might fall in love with you again,she might not, but no matter how you look at your loved one is dead and this one is fails. She is the casual gamer title because she is temporary enjoyment.

Holy... someone needs an intervention, methinks! This is just plain unhealthy.

[MikeWolfskin]

Your never going to change my mind deal with it, it's my opinion and you now I'm right. MWahahahaha!

[virion]

wait a second. i've figured it out. this argument is now over. you see. casual games are games that can be picked up and played easily by anybody.. right. from there. if you spend a massive amount of time and become skilled in a casual game then you are hardcore at that game. the game itself is not hardcore. the player is hardcore over the game. point set match bitches.

[MikeWolfskin]

wait a second. i've figured it out. this argument is now over. you see. casual games are games that can be picked up and played easily by anybody.. right. from there. if you spend a massive amount of time and become skilled in a casual game then you are hardcore at that game. the game itself is not hardcore. the player is hardcore over the game. point set match bitches.

I might be willing to see it that that :D But then again, casual gives off one style only, it can only be casual your still a casual gamer playing a casual title. I'm not willing to say someone is hardcore alone based on there enjoyment to play something casual for hours.

[thegamecubist]

Not truth, no storyline means the game can not be defined by the words Epic, unless someone is lying about what Epic really means.

You say games have to have epic storylines to be considered hardcore...

So this disregards...

Practically every 2D shooter every made
Practically every platformer
All racing games (if you say GT/Burnout isn't hardcore I will punch you in the face)
Practically every fighting game (the stories are laughable)

This also means you disregard games with minimalist storytelling, like Shadow of the Colossus, which only if you actually care about games will you look past the "whoa, killing large ****!" level of the game.

I think Viron hit it on the head...it's not the game you play, but how you play.

[Monkeylord]

wait a second. i've figured it out. this argument is now over. you see. casual games are games that can be picked up and played easily by anybody.. right. from there. if you spend a massive amount of time and become skilled in a casual game then you are hardcore at that game. the game itself is not hardcore. the player is hardcore over the game. point set match bitches.

Isn't that a longer way of saying what I said a page back?

It's all in how the game is played. Are you trying to say that all puzzle games are casual?

If he said that his wife plays Dr. Mario for 4hrs a day without fail, I'd say that's pretty hardcore.




This is why I HATE the labels "Hardcore" and "Casual".

I might be willing to see it that that :D But then again, casual gives off one style only, it can only be casual your still a casual gamer playing a casual title. I'm not willing to say someone is hardcore alone based on there enjoyment to play something casual for hours.

Such a ****ing hypocrit.

[MikeWolfskin]

You say games have to have epic storylines to be considered hardcore...

So this disregards...

Practically every 2D shooter every made
Practically every platformer
All racing games (if you say GT/Burnout isn't hardcore I will punch you in the face)
Practically every fighting game (the stories are laughable)

This also means you disregard games with minimalist storytelling, like Shadow of the Colossus, which only if you actually care about games will you look past the "whoa, killing large ****!" level of the game. Most early platformers and games where casual live with it. Mario is not complex, not a bad game one of my most beloved but his games will never be hardcore.

I think Viron hit it on the head...it's not the game you play, but how you play.

Racing games are casual there not hardcore they have no storyline, there made for pure shot time pick up, drop, then re pick enjoyment. It's simple as that. Performers titles are not hardcore, and almost always casual or rarely core, live with it. The point is not your personally enjoyment of them. I love Mario but he casual and will always be just that.

Isn't that a longer way of saying what I said a page back?

Such a ****ing hypocrit.

All Hardcore games are defined by storyline, but he is saying is someone is good (Hardcore) at a title for playing for a long period of time. He did'nt say it made that game hardcore, or that a person was hardcore at anything beyound that game. In truth there playing a casual game in a hardcore style. There still not hardcore, and the title is still not hardcore. This is basically what he was saying and I'd agree. However games with story's are core, games with out are casual, games with deep story's are hardcore. This is how I see it and your never going to chang my mind on that ever, live with it buddy.

[Monkeylord]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A HARDCORE GAME, ONLY HARDCORE PLAYERS!

Games can appeal more to one type of player than another, but still be played by either. I know TONS of people who only play games like Gears, Halo, GTA, FF... none of which do for much more than maybe 30-45mins a week TOPS. I also know people who mainly play games like tetris or Dr. Mario, but do so for hours a day.

Which one's which then? Who's more hardcore?

[MikeWolfskin]

Again Hardcore is defined by the deep storyline in the game! There is a such thing as Hardcore, it's what Final Fantasy does that many other titles do not.

"Begin hardcore is playing rich, epic, divine, breathtaking complex storylines with good gaming elements, near boundless out of this world music, in the form of many Hardcore styled games for endless hours to understand that personalty, or to experiences emotions that might make you cry or bend you to believe that which is not real is real because of storyline!"

The bold is my point beyound point, and Final Fantasy is just one example of games that had deep storylines that made me cry, thus making me "experiences emotions that might make you cry or bend you to believe that which is not real is real because of storyline!"

[Darc Requiem]

Wow Mike, seemed like we had a good thread going on here. Congrats on derailing it :doh:

[MikeWolfskin]

Wow Mike, seemed like we had a good thread going on here. Congrats on derailing it :doh:

It's in the War Room deal with it, I have the right to give and defend from anyone who challenges my opinion on the matter. Think what ever you all what to believe but I'll be defending my post when someone disagrees and challenges my opinion on the matter!

Getting back on topic however I understand what Minamoto means. We all started off as none gamers and casuals and slowly got into new stuff and became hardcore based on how we grow or changed styles of enjoyment. So I kind of agree with him on that part, I just can't agree about DR Mario begin Hardcore ever. The new Wii game will grow up and become different in style or choice and again the terms of Hardcore gamer will be redefined.

[Monkeylord]

There's more games out there without storylines than with.





In the grand scheme of things, a storyline is a means to an end and typically one of the last things thought about when designing a game.

All the stuff that you mentiond (from storyline to music) is your personal opinion of what makes a game hardcore. The fact that you dismiss all other elements just goes to show how narrow minded you really are.

Thus, I conclude that you are delusional.



Good day sir.

[MikeWolfskin]

That's fine it's your so called right to an opinion, one which is wrong. The emotion is made by the deep storyline and those it's what makes games hardcore, based on the complexions of it. A deep story makes you believe the game is real, a puzzle game is not deep and can't do that because has no story. It's like a real human flying on his own, impossible.

[Monkeylord]

You clearly miss the point of what a game actually is.




GOOD DAY SIR.

[MikeWolfskin]

You clearly miss the point of what a game actually is.




GOOD DAY SIR.

No you clearly miss what a game is about, It's about making you live in the moment and believe what is not real is when it's not. Now your trying to force your opinion over mine....good day sir.

[Monkeylord]

Then I pity you... ferellz.



Excuse me, I must go pour one out for you.

[MikeWolfskin]

Then I pity you... ferellz.



Excuse me, I must go pour one out for you.

And I pity you for not understand or enjoying someone elses art of there worlds.

Good day mate....sigh......

[Monkeylord]

Don't go confusing my dismissing of what you think makes a game "hardcore" as being incapable of appreciating a well thought out story/scenario/envisioning.


Just remember, that according to Wolfskin's Creed we can categorise the following thusly:


Mega Man Series - casual bull****
Virtua Fighter Series - Casual bull****
Super Mario Series - Casual bull****
Dead or Alive Series - Casual bull****
Street Fighter Series - Casual bull****
Unreal Tournament Series - Casual bull****
Burnout Series - Casual bull****
Halo Series - Casual bull****
Gears of War Series - Casual bull****



Anyone else wanna add to the list of casual bull****? All the above have next to no, or EXTREMELY generic storyline.

[Brian-AMN]

What does storyline have to do with a game being hardcore or not? What does it have to do with a game being good? By Mike's definition almost NO games are hardcore (or good) because nearly ALL video games have pretty lame storylines. I get that you prefer games with storylines - nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't make every otehr game casual or crappy.

Mike, if epic storyline is all that's important to you, why don't you go read the Homer's The Illiad and The Odyssey? They are the very definition of EPIC, and NO video game ever created can hold a candle to them story-wise.

[HGW XX/7]

Don't go confusing my dismissing of what you think makes a game "hardcore" as being incapable of appreciating a well thought out story/scenario/envisioning.


Just remember, that according to Wolfskin's Creed we can categorise the following thusly:


Mega Man Series - casual bull****
Virtua Fighter Series - Casual bull****
Super Mario Series - Casual bull****
Dead or Alive Series - Casual bull****
Street Fighter Series - Casual bull****
Unreal Tournament Series - Casual bull****
Burnout Series - Casual bull****
Halo Series - Casual bull****
Gears of War Series - Casual bull****
90% of JRPGs - Casual bull****



Anyone else wanna add to the list of casual bull****? All the above have next to no, or EXTREMELY generic storyline.

There ya go.

[Darc Requiem]

It's in the War Room deal with it, I have the right to give and defend from anyone who challenges my opinion on the matter. Think what ever you all what to believe but I'll be defending my post when someone disagrees and challenges my opinion on the matter!

Getting back on topic however I understand what Minamoto means. We all started off as none gamers and casuals and slowly got into new stuff and became hardcore based on how we grow or changed styles of enjoyment. So I kind of agree with him on that part, I just can't agree about DR Mario begin Hardcore ever. The new Wii game will grow up and become different in style or choice and again the terms of Hardcore gamer will be redefined.

Your in ability to deal with "it", and by "it" I mean opposing viewpoints is what caused the thread to to moved in the first place. :dry:

[thegamecubist]

Racing games are casual there not hardcore they have no storyline, there made for pure shot time pick up, drop, then re pick enjoyment. It's simple as that. Performers titles are not hardcore, and almost always casual or rarely core, live with it. The point is not your personally enjoyment of them. I love Mario but he casual and will always be just that.

That's why there are 24 hour races in GT4, right?

[DEATHSTAR]

I think the only point Miyamoto is making is that Dr. Mario is a "core gamer" variant of the casual puzzle game.

And Deathstar, my count shows 2 Pikmin and 3 Smash Bros games released in the last decade. By comparison, Call of Duty has had 10 games released since 2003.

I don't think any of us can really in our heart of hearts suggest that true Mario and Zelda games have been degraded by the release of "crap sequels." I think those two names were significant reasons why any of us bought a Wii.

Maybe I slightly overstepped in making my point about the various spin-off games and handheld games etc. My point stands though it may have more to do with milking franchises more than anything. And no denying that CoD doesn't have a ton of games under it's belt, I only stand by one of them. The rest of them I didn't play or spend much time with.

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Oh and this thread has become highly entertaining at work. Thanks! :)
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[Tanooki]

Holy crap I called this one didn't I? I knew Mike would crater it with his insane and very unique concepts of what only classifies as a hardcore game and therefore a hardcore gamer. Monkey there pretty much buried the obvious considering that list and more don't have rich detailed story and so on to fit that mold, sad thing is that mold only fits to a RPG and derivatives. I think it's pretty sad to just rush out there and call something on the surface 'simple' as non-hardcore and casual. One thing I like to use when I see such an epically stupid comment is to draw comparisons as some did already to 8bit consoles, but instead use the arcade. Pac-Man, Defender, Robotron, Xevious, Ghosts n' Goblins, and so on...they have no huge story, no character development, use a very simple control mechanism, and the rest of his qualifications for a crappy 'casual' game or casual gamer experience. Thinking of that list and probably a good 100 more games from just the quarter muncher days give me a huge laugh seeing how stupid this has fallen. Sure, though, fine...those aren't puzzles, but you know what Tetris, Qix, and Klax are three I can think of. Anyone who can kick even moderate ass at that is not anything but hardcore in gaming and as a gamer.

[Darc Requiem]

That's why there are 24 hour races in GT4, right?

Excellent point Cubist. GT4 and Forza are as about as hardcore as you can get. You can literally take either game, play it for two hours day, and two months later still have only scratched the surface in either game.

[DEATHSTAR]

Excellent point Cubist. GT4 and Forza are as about as hardcore as you can get. You can literally take either game, play it for two hours day, and two months later still have only scratched the surface in either game.

The physics engines in some racing games alone disqualify them from casual fare. Want to talk about complex this genre has some of the most complex games invented.

[MikeWolfskin]

That's why there are 24 hour races in GT4, right?

Playing the game or race that long makes you a hardcore gamer at that title, it does not make that title a Hardcore title or you a hard core alone. It's a core title, not casual not hardcore. It's not hardcore because of one sold reason no Epic storyline. Playing hours on in is yes amazing but alone does not make you a hardcore gamer, and does not change the fact that a racing game can't make you fill sad.

Don't go confusing my dismissing of what you think makes a game "hardcore" as being incapable of appreciating a well thought out story/scenario/envisioning.


Just remember, that according to Wolfskin's Creed we can categorise the following thusly:


Mega Man Series - casual bull****
Virtua Fighter Series - Casual bull****
Super Mario Series - Casual bull****
Dead or Alive Series - Casual bull****
Street Fighter Series - Casual bull****
Unreal Tournament Series - Casual bull****
Burnout Series - Casual bull****
Halo Series - Casual bull****
Gears of War Series - Casual bull****



Anyone else wanna add to the list of casual bull****? All the above have next to no, or EXTREMELY generic storyline.

Again you prove you have to idea what you talking about. You most not love the art or story of any game. It goes something more along this line.

Mega Man Series - Casual
Virtua Fighter Series - Casual
Super Mario Series - Casual
Dead or Alive Series - Casual
Street Fighter Series - Casual
Unreal Tournament Series - Casual
Burnout Series - Core
Halo Series - Hardcore
Gears of War Series - Hardcore

[DEATHSTAR]

How bout we lock this thread as it's not going to be any more productive than it is now.

Mike has drawn his line in the sand and he won't be budging. So rather than let this go on to the point of someone getting themselves in trouble let agree that this topic is officially beat... for now!

[MikeWolfskin]

I'm fine with "Agreeing To Disagree" for now.

[thegamecubist]

I personally don't see validity in the arguement for a game with a story line being considered hardcore. While the interactive medium allows for greater characterization by the player, as it's your actions, not an actor's actions, many gaming stories are for, the most part, not that "epic" in the grand scheme of entertainment. It's like, why play games when you can watch movies or read books that are so much more deeper and epic? It's because of the interactive element; arguing "epic storylines make a game hardcore" is a misnomer because you obviously play games for a reason Mike; the gameplay. If not, why else would you bother yourself with the complex controls, high price of entry, mostly poor voice acting and just average (relative to other mediums) story of games?

EDIT: My bad, didn't see the truce posts before this.

[MR EPIC]

Oh well, it's obvious that Mike lost this argument. So rather than give him an infraction for derailing the thread, we'll just go ahead and lock it and spare Mike any more embarrassment.

[Monkeylord]

Again you prove you have to idea what you talking about. You most not love the art or story of any game. It goes something more along this line.

I take a huge amount of offence at this.




I must admit, I'm still kinda shocked at your tunnel vision, and commend your devotion to a genre, but for christ's sake open your damn eyes.

I've said it many times now, and I'll say it again. I hate that the terms "Hardcore" and "Casual" exist, and believe that there's no such thing as a hardcore or casual title - only hardcore and casual players.

You can spout all the buzzwords referring to story that you want, but it won't change this fact (and it IS a fact).