Nintendo HATES Unauthorised Channels (AKA is it wrong to mod your tech?)

[Monkeylord]

You a Wii owner?

You have homebrew?


You're gonna hate these new Nintendo T&C's...

We may without notifying you, download updates, patches, upgrades and similar software to your Wii Console and may disable unauthorized or illegal software placed on your Wii Console to ensure that your Wii Console is operating properly and efficiently, comply with applicable laws, assist law enforcement, protect us and our customers, or prevent the use and distribution of software obtained through improper channels.

Source (http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wii/en_na/privacyPolicy.jsp)


Other features of the new update are:

Enhanced parental controls
USB Keyboard support for Mii channel added
System functions improvement
Improved SD speeds (reports of at least twice as fast are out there)

[Tailzo]

Well, I only have normal channels, so I guess it's no problem for me :)

[Monkeylord]

Apparently the unauthorised channel removal hasn't happened yet (seen plenty of reports of people updating and still having HBC, etc) but Nintendo obviously have something in the pipeline if they're already covering their arses with new T&C's.

[Tailzo]

Do you console have to be modded to allow homebrew? If so, I can understand Nintendo.

[MikeWolfskin]

Get over it already you own a none official update that can and has been used for hacking free Wii games and others uses. Of course there going to do there best to keep it off there console it's not official. The only peolpe who own homebrews are useing it for not payed for free Video Games, end of topic. Anyone who says that's not what there useing it for is clearly a lair. Can we all stop talking about this every time Nintendo or any console does a update to protect them self already? For real it's getting old.

[Monkeylord]

Get over it already you own a none official update that can and has been used for hacking free Wii games and others uses. Of course there going to do there best to keep it off there console it's not official. The only peolpe who own homebrews are useing it for not payed for free Video Games, end of topic. Anyone who says that's not what there useing it for is clearly a lair. Can we all stop talking about this every time Nintendo or any console does a update to protect them self already? For real it's getting old.

In order

No.
No I don't.
That's right, and it's their perogative to do so.
Hogwash, I know Rensa uses the HBC to play region free, as do many others here.
No.
No.



You see, usually people like to know what changes have been implemented when a new update comes out, and threads like this help. Also, if you read the new T&C's you'll see that Nintendo have now stated that they can update your Wii WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION. People will want to discuss this too. If you don't then kindly GTFO.

[PF the Kitsune]

Oh yeah, this sucks. Nintendo's definitely trying to put the final nail in the homebrew coffin, but I'm confident that the homebrew devs can keep it up. It's a shame it had to come to this point, though - Nintendo didn't start getting super aggressive until an ISO loader was released.

I'm confident that a workaround will be found eventually. Doesn't matter much to me though since I haven't updated my Wii for months. I'll start to get more concerned about this when something I wanna buy comes down the line and it has a force update.

Oh, and Mike, I use my homebrew to play DVDs on my Wii. Not end of topic. ;)

[MikeWolfskin]

Big deal, stop useing none official hardware and you'll have no issues, keep useing none official hardware and you'll keep running into mistakes.

Should Nintendo or any company allow for you do what peolpe have to the original PSP handheld? I'm talking about how peolpe hack there games for Memory card use to get the games on UMD for free.The answer is no! It's there console they can do whatever they wish to with it as long as I the buyer can still play my legal games and legal official hardware.

Your all very funny to watch, in one breath it's all about LMFAO at Xbox 360 users getting banned from there console for illegal use but when it involves something on your console you very likely doing, it's all oh snap no they did not. I'll stand by words of anyone who says there useing it for some other means is a big fat liar and that goes for anyone here as well.

What is even better is there already forcing us to downland updates by putting them on the Disc. What to play a new game then update and we shall put the update on the Disc for none online peolpe. Big deal however all console this generation do this, tell me something new!

And no I'm not on Nintendo's side but no there not in the wrong as no company is in the wrong it's there way to protect them self's from illegal game copy's, live with it, it's the end of gaming or the world! However it is a means to the end of illegal games that peolpe need to pay for.

[PF the Kitsune]

Shame, Mike. I was hoping we could actually get an engaging discussion going here, but it's hard to do that when I'm just talking to a brick wall.

[Monkeylord]

Once again Mike, stop with the blanket statements. I don't and never have used any kind of hacks or mods on my Wii. This was just information for everyone that has particular significance for those that do use mods.

Also, not everyone here who do have the HBC use it for nefarious practices.

[MikeWolfskin]

Shame, Mike. I was hoping we could actually get an engaging discussion going here, but it's hard to do that when I'm just talking to a brick wall.

Don't give me that, if you think your right prove it fairly. That's how I play. This program, no those type of programs are the door way to illegal games. There is no getting around that I've seen it with my own eyes. So how am I wrong? Why should that company not be forced to pay Nintendo to make hardware on there console like everyone else does?

[Monkeylord]

I've seen reports of people updating, but not losing any of their peg-legged channels.

I find it interesting how they've covered themselves by stating that they may update your console whether you like it or not. Wonder if they'll do it via WFC or if we've now seen the end of "An update is required to play this software" messages on new games.

[Tailzo]

Region free wii? Tell me more! I always have to wait for games way too long. (As seen in my newest thread...)

[Monkeylord]

You'll have to ask Rensa. I've never looked into it.

[HGW XX/7]

That's pretty harsh. Even Microsoft gives you the choice of whether or not you wish to update your console. If you don't want to, then you don't play on live. End of story.

The NXE is going to be forced via new games, but they'll still probably give you the warning saying you'll get an update.

Nintendo's become more oppressive than Sony as far as piracy goes.

Never thought I'd say that.

Also, this is why we NEED Sega as a console manufacturer. They had the most easily modded consoles, and they never really gave much of a damn about it.

[Tailzo]

^And I was the only one I knew in real life that bought Dreamcast games :(

[thegamecubist]

I think we just need more Sega, period.

I'm definitely not up for Nintendo being able to update my Wii without my permission. Is them kill piracy permissible? Of course; they are a business after all. While I don't agree with Mike in saying that "all HBC users are pirates", you can't deny the fact that HBC does open the door to piracy and if Nintendo wants to seal it shut, it's going to have to affect HBC users with less nefarious intentions as well.

[MikeWolfskin]

Microsoft's console does the very same thing on Auto updates via the disc just like Nintendo does. If they both what to kill it they can and have that way in the past.

[thegamecubist]

At least there you are getting some sort of prompt. The way these new T&Cs read it's like they can do it without giving you any heads up. Hard to say without it actually happening, but thats the impression I get from this.

[MikeWolfskin]

At least there you are getting some sort of prompt. The way these new T&Cs read it's like they can do it without giving you any heads up. Hard to say without it actually happening, but thats the impression I get from this.

It's not like it asking you makes the difference anyways. It only says system needs to do a Auto Update to play this game Yes or No? No means you can't play the new game, Yes means you can play the new game but none official stuff is voided out by it most of the time. I don't call that a choice personally because of coarse I what to play the game, and yes I wish to keep pirates at bay. Long live Ninja's :D

[thegamecubist]

I think it does make a difference. What if you don't want what new feature is the new update? For example, I didn't update my Photo Channel because I want MP3 support.

[Darc Requiem]

That's pretty harsh. Even Microsoft gives you the choice of whether or not you wish to update your console. If you don't want to, then you don't play on live. End of story.

The NXE is going to be forced via new games, but they'll still probably give you the warning saying you'll get an update.

Nintendo's become more oppressive than Sony as far as piracy goes.

Never thought I'd say that.

Also, this is why we NEED Sega as a console manufacturer. They had the most easily modded consoles, and they never really gave much of a damn about it.

There is nothing good about an easily pirated console. So many people were burning Dreamcast games it wasn't funny.

[HGW XX/7]

It's not like it asking you makes the difference anyways. It only says system needs to do a Auto Update to play this game Yes or No? No means you can't play the new game, Yes means you can play the new game but none official stuff is voided out by it most of the time. I don't call that a choice personally because of coarse I what to play the game, and yes I wish to keep pirates at bay. Long live Ninja's :D

I've never had an XBOX 360 game tell me the console needed to be updated for me to be allowed to play it. Only to be connected to Live while playing it.

Edit: And Darc. I wasn't talking about allowing people to pirate stuff, but mainly for region free/after the console runs its course. I know what you mean though. i've never played a burned Dreamcast game. Though I'm waiting for the day they release the Segagaga English Patched game for download. I own the JP copy of the game legit, so it's cool for me.

[Rensa]

Argh, crap. I'm a a mate's place right now and I've left my Wii hooked up to WiiConnect24 to prevent bricking issues. Well, I'll just have to see how things go when I get home... hopefully this is just a T&C update as Monkey said and I can avoid future updates :)

Tailzo, you can use the HBC and region-free software without a mod chip... I use it as a good backup, since it has somewhat higher compatability (around 95% compared with about 70-75% for NTSC/PAL crosses), for titles like Wii Fit that won't boot with the modchip alone :)

EDIT: to reassure people a bit, it's worth pointing out that, IIRC, Ninty lready had clauses in its T&C stating that it cold download updates without notifying the user. This just extends that to the removal of software.

Also, to make things clear, I don't blame Ninty for taking these measures. I acknowledged the risk inherent in modding my console, and whle I don't use my mods for piratical purposes, I fully acknolwedge Ninty's right to seal the holes in its software and prohibit unofficial apps.

[Monkeylord]

Apparantly, this update doesn't instant download and it hasn't wiped HBC if it's already installed. It has, by all accounts, destroyed the Twilight Hack.

System Menu 3.4
As of November 17, 2008, Nintendo is sending notices to the Wii Message Board announcing the availability of Wii Menu 3.4. The announcement lists these changes:
- USB keyboard support in Mii Channel
- Enhanced parental controls
- Twilight Hack version 0.1beta1 cannot be copied to the console.

Two other changes have been noted:
- Improved SD card read/write speed
- Improved disc reading
- Update appears to include IOS50 (used by menu) and IOS254 (a copy of IOS9, to block PatchMii).

What is affected
Affected/Workaround
Twilight Hack 0.1beta1 and below /None (yet)
PatchMii/None (yet, but should be easy)

Not affected
The Homebrew Channel (only if already installed)

Source (http://wiibrew.org/wiki/System_Menu_3.4)

[SpaceOddity]

I downloaded it last night, and decided to move **** around in my "fridge". Definitely faster transfer speeds thats for sure. Much appreciated. No longer does a 64 game take like 3 minutes to transfer, down to under a minute down. Good ****.

As for the being able to update without your permission. 1) They are just declaring their right, not necessarily enforcing it 2.) I dont care.

Really I guess some people will get upset about this, but I dont see really why. I suppose this could hurt being a pirate or a homebrew channel user, but i dont think nintendo is worried about the 150 people using homebrew actively. Since i participate in neither nintendo can go update my system without my knowledge whenever i want, never has one had a negative effect on me.

[Monkeylord]

Yeah, I just downloaded it and tried the SD transfer speeds between my 1GB Wii branded SD card (it was cheap, sue me!) and the notorious "Sin and Punishment" which used to take over 5mins to transfer. It's down to approx 30secs both from Wii to SD card and from SD card to Wii.

Colour me impressed!

[Lucas]

Get over it already you own a none official update that can and has been used for hacking free Wii games and others uses. Of course there going to do there best to keep it off there console it's not official. The only peolpe who own homebrews are useing it for not payed for free Video Games, end of topic. Anyone who says that's not what there useing it for is clearly a lair. Can we all stop talking about this every time Nintendo or any console does a update to protect them self already? For real it's getting old.

God, I can't it when people generalize to tow a company line. Let me spell this out for you in plain simple English.

"I am not a pirate."


I use the Homebrew Channel to play legally purchased/imported titles that have been denied from my region because Nintendo of America is only interested in games that sell to soccer moms, or have Mario on the box. I'm importing Tatsunoko vs. Capcom because licensing blocks it from being sold here. I full and well expect to be able to play it with the Homebrew Channel. as a 2D Capcom fighter fan, I'm disgusted that I can't just go to GameStop to pick it up, but I've been jumping through these hoops to get my fix since the 32-bit days, so I'm used to it. I'll be damned if Nintendo is going to treat me like a child and "parent" me into not playing games I should be able to play. Region codes should have died with the 20th Century.

If this means I have to give up the Wi-Fi functionality, Virtual Console, and WiiWare to preserve my ability to play good retail games we are being denied, then so be it. They've gotten several hundreds of dollars worth of purchases out of me on that service, so they're loosing a HELL of a customer. I am not a freaking pirate, but I'll be damned if I am going to be denied good video games in this global economy we live in. Get with the times Nintendo, or get the hell out.

This is what Custom Firmware and Mod Chips are for.

[Tanooki]

Blah blah blah too much to read blah blah. :P

Seriously sticking to post #1 here and if it's a repeat...so?

Congrats Nintendo. I read that update about 2 hours ago and I actually was kind of laughing as I had to do a doubletake on that little warning about unauthorized channels. I knew damn well they got mad over recent vaster exploits on the system that didn't need hardwiring (mods) to do. Good move on their part. I know it'll hose a minority of those who are 'honest' with the HBC who really do run homebred and/or outer regional titles, but nearly all the assclowns with this thing run warez. Personally I hope they take this crap dead seriously finally and push it to force people into hardware modding as it would cut off a lot of the shenanigans as most thieves fear, can't afford, or are too lazy to bother going that far.

Look I don't like that it harms the wee minority of those being honest with the HBC as it sucks, and even I have been tempted to give a crack at it over some non-USA released stuff, but I'll live and so can the rest. No one 'has' to play a game, they want to...wants are not needs. I saw that it only so far seems to be steps against the hackery with Twilight Princess so that's a good thing, but who knows if HBC is next on the chopping block.


Honestly I want to learn more of this x2 speed or whatever on the SD card movement as that was disgustingly slow when I did Sin and Punishment.

[Blinger101]

I'm giving it a week or two before the hack gets updated and re-released to work with the new update. It only took them that long last time. The guys who do the Twilight Hack aren't idiots. They know EXACTLY what to look for when they get into it. It's only a matter of time. Seriously, MS/Sony/Nintendo need to be HIRING these guys.

[MikeWolfskin]

I've never had an XBOX 360 game tell me the console needed to be updated for me to be allowed to play it. Only to be connected to Live while playing it.


Because your hooked up to the internet if your not updated or on the internet with your console the update comes on the Disc and your forced to update to play the new titles, trust me, I've seen it with my own eyes.

I think it does make a difference. What if you don't want what new feature is the new update? For example, I didn't update my Photo Channel because I want MP3 support.

No it does not make a difference you all very well understand that there going to force you to update something that keeps illegal games off the market. Other stuff will remains an optional downland and you all very well now this. The forced updates will use up miner space as it always has.

[Tanooki]

^Animal Crossing did one of those forced updates on me and it was the first time I ever saw that so I was surprised.

Blinger: Maybe, but what they were exploiting was a legitimate hole in how TP worked that allowed that hack to be done, but the hole supposedly after failing the first time is closed. They'll just keep making updates even if it has to be weekly or so to fight them so it could end up being a huge unannounced nuisance since we're warned now updates may not be declared.


Edit:
SD CARD TEST
45 Seconds = 287blocks (40MB I believe)...it's the largest file size I've seen that My Life as a King and Sin and Punishment both share. Those games before (I had moved over S&P) had taken about 3-5min to send from the Wii to my 1GB Kodak SD card. Damn that's an improvement, now I don't mind using the feature.

[SpaceOddity]

^absolutely this speed makes copying to my wii really easy. Especially now that I went and put a copy of everything to my sd card. Now when I need new games I can just delete off the system and pull from the card since it has all my **** on it. I honestly have no real complaints about storage from now on because I own like 20 games across VC and WiiWare and still have 5,000+ blocks on my card.

[thegamecubist]

No it does not make a difference you all very well understand that there going to force you to update something that keeps illegal games off the market. Other stuff will remains an optional downland and you all very well now this. The forced updates will use up miner space as it always has.

Agree to disagree, I guess. We're both on the same page with piracy but I'm just of the mentality that I like to have some modicum of control over system software.

[Rensa]

Ah, phew. I don't need the Twilight Hack since I have the HBC (though, like Blinger, I'd expect a new one to surface pretty soon), so it looks like I'm fine.

[Smokey]

Just going off the OP, I'm not sure I like the sound of unwarranted, unannounced updates. Updates should be at the discretion of the user, not Nintendo.

And as for what a user does with the console he purchased and now owns (not Nintendo, the user), that shouldn't be Nintendo's business. They're raking in money hand-over-fist, so they shouldn't be worried about a loss of a few bucks here and there. If the user screws with his system and ****s it up as a result, that should be his problem. Nintendo should not be playing Big Brother here.

This does not affect me personally as of yet, but the matter does disturb and annoy me on general principle.

[Tanooki]

Don't bother me one bit because they're just securing holes in their own software build into the system and that's ok. If someone wants to hard mod the system, more power to them though.

[Lucas]

Look, you guys can read the Terms of Service to me all day, but the fact is this. I paid $250 for that damned hardware. It's mine. If Nintendo wants to take rights away from me, they're going to have to come into my fu*king house to do it. I pulled the manual to Super Mario World out of my closet just to read how far back they've been trying to bully the customer. The manual states that I don't have the right to re-sell a game once I've purchased it. The hell I don't. It's my property. I'm not renting or leasing it from Nintendo. I'm not giving up my rights to do as I please with hardware I own when I'm giving them upwards of $300 a year in retail software and about the same amount over for digital software. I bought it, thus it is mine. The day I'm forbid from modifying the software/hardware of a product I've legally purchased (for my own purposes, not for resale or redistribution) and legally supported for two years is the day I stop purchasing that company's hardware.

I'll be installing the next custom firmware that comes along and going about my merry business. They are not taking Tatsunoko vs. Capcom away from me, and if they want to try, they're going to have to come see me about it.

[Tanooki]

You really do play the whiny activist so well you know that? :D Like it or not they can say that. Ultimately you purchased the right to one license to a piece of software that they deem is non-transferrable...deal with it. The fact they're not so rich and bored with time on their hands is the only reason they and the other 2 don't go after retail and have used lines shut down on that legal fact. I do get though the hardware end and I do agree, but they do own the software bound to the hardware, including the BIOS and networking, so you are on their terms, same with any of the big 3. Whine all you want, but it really is NOT your right to do anything you want on the software end, hardware yes though, but since everything is connected these days or updated off of discs...you're hosed.

[Lucas]

I would be willing to bet money that if Nintendo (or any other publisher) decided to go after the used market, they would loose under fair use policy. Hollywood tried to stop us from using cassette tape, Beta Max, VCR's, DVR's, CD-R's and the like, but they lose every single time. Hence, nobody bothers to screw with the used market.

...but since everything is connected these days or updated off of discs...you're hosed.

That's what they said about the PSP hacking scene, but I think everyone knows who won that war, and it wasn't Sony. Granted, Nintendo is more stringent about this sort of thing, but they won't win. Hackers always win in the end, and Custom Firmware is pretty much insurmountable as long as somebody is continuously cracking each update like they've done with the PSP. That's why I'm browsing the PSP Store legitimately right now, while all my UMD discs have been ripped to the memory stick.

Hackers. Always. Win. Always have, always will.

[MikeWolfskin]

Are we done crying and whinnying over Nintendo rights to do what ever they wish to with there console? No matter how you might believe or think there updating there console, you have voided terms of serves, so your the peolpe who have to live with your mistakes.

On the up side your right you can do whatever you wish to do, but that doesn't mean just because you can you should. Becuse some jumps off a cliff youd do the same? Becuse you can buy a gun, does that mean you need one to fire at peolpe? No!

Point is your still going to pay for your choice no matter what you personally think in terms of right or wrong, I think your wrong. So do us all a huge favor and "Can It" about whinnying over Nintendo's choices to try and cut you off for voiding terms of serves!

I don't care what you fill, or do with you Wii-Wii console personally just stop bitching already! They have the right to do it and they very well may do it and then your going to pay for your choice so live with it and suck it up.

[SpaceOddity]

Jesus.... Mike and Jeff are right for once...and agreeing!

[Smokey]

Right, my ass. If you buy it, it's yours. Nintendo doesn't have any right to do **** about what you do with YOUR console. I'm really becoming less and less enamored with Nintendo on an almost daily occurrence.

[Lucas]

They have the right to do it and they very well may do it and then your going to pay for your choice so live with it and suck it up.

Oh-no! Does that mean I'm going to video game hell for sinning against Nintendo? ;) Hacked my PSP a long time ago. I have no regrets, and there have been no consequences. Sony gets money, I get freedom. I'll be doing the same thing here. Thanks.

[Monkeylord]

This discussion is getting a bit heated for just the Nintendo forums... feel free to use this copy that's now in the War Room, and leave the original thread about discussing the update.

:)

[Blinger101]

My response to Mike:

While I whole-heartedly DISAGREE with your opinion, I will fight to the death for your right to that opinion.

Otherwise though, it's like talking a brick wall. I've got the Homebrew Channel. Yes, I did get it through the Twilight hack, but otherwise, I don't use it for any nefarious uses. As far as the Homebrew Channel is concerned, the end more than justifies the means. Like Rensa, I too will be using homebrew for region-free Wii goodness. Also, DVD playback. I'm not playing roms with it, or anything like that.

If anything, the Homebrew scene is EXACTLY like what Microsoft is doing with their XNA Community Games program. Homebrew allows potential programmers to develop simple yet effective applications for the Wii system (and that includes a variety of games that make more use of the Wii remote than any retail games out there).

I await your rebuttal.

[Lucas]

You know, the best thing that happened this generation was when Sony stripped region codes from PS3 titles. Nintendo will never do that. Hell, now they're inflicting region codes on portables via the DSi, something that has never been done until now.

Nintendo is a company that likes to be "in control". They like to control every aspect of their market. That's why a game like LittleBigPlanet would have never, and never will work on a Nintendo platform. They tell you what you want, and when you want it. They tell me that I don't want, and that I'm not allowed to have a 2D VS. Fighter from Japan. Well, I'm telling them that I'll go to whatever lengths to play it. Nintendo can take their TOS and shove it up their ass. Yes Mike, legally they might have every right to do whatever they want with their software, but that's not going to stop me from taking every measure I can to preserve my freedoms to play my legally purchased video games. I'm a stringent supporter of preserving my rights to do what I want with my own hardware and software I've legally purchased hard earned dollars for. I'll be damned if a company is going to control me from my own living room. That's why I build a home-made DVR rather than buy a Tivo. It was the old "you don't have any rights to record TV shows" VCR debate again. Hollywood found a way to control the content from our living rooms, so I ditched their platform altogether and built my own.

If you desire to continue this brick wall stand-off, I'm more than happy to oblige. :)

[Blinger101]

Seems like it's me and Lucas against Jeff and Mike (Jeff not so much).

[PF the Kitsune]

Hell, I'll just go ahead and admit it: I've had the homebrew channel since the first public version was released, and I had been doing homebrew even before that via the Twilight Hack. And I'll admit that I've used it for emulation since day one. But that's not the sole reason that I support homebrew - I think it makes for a great platform for fledgling developers to show off their stuff and bring something to the table. And it's a great way to add features that Nintendo decided to overlook. Thanks to homebrew, I can now use my Wii as a DVD player, virtual whiteboard, and FTP server among other things. For me, homebrew has just been adding more and more functionality to the Wii, and Nintendo is working towards taking all that away.

And besides. emulation really isn't that bad... to an extent. While I don't support the recent developments of ISO burning and playing illegal downloads of Wii games (I've actually come to resent it now since that's why Nintendo is starting to come down so hard on homebrew), I think anything before that is perfectly fine. I have an NES, SNES, N64 (not very functional as of yet), Genesis, and GBA emulator on my Wii, and most of the games I play are games I've already bought in the past, so it provides a better alternative to the Virtual Console. I already shelled out some cash for a copy of Donkey Kong Country, why should I have to pay $8 just for the convenience of having it on my Wii? And plus, there's a ton of games out there that are either hard to find or pricey as hell (Chrono Trigger, anyone?).

What I do with my Wii isn't affecting anybody else. Let me have my god-console in peace.

[Tanooki]

Lucas, you're wrong. The PSP, the latest version hasn't been hacked far as I can recall. The only way they did it was to gut a PSP 3000 model and place the 2000 guts in there to get the advantage of the new screen and casing. That's hardly a hacker win, that's just using an old exploit with a screwdriver and some patience to do a hardware swap. So yah, actually ...Sony did win so far on that finally.

Smokey, right is right, don't be an ass. :) You bought something that has terms of use you agree to, and you in that agreement agreed to amendments of it. The current amendment of it says that they can upgrade your BIOS whenever you want and now in this when they want to do it too. So if you wish to use the system you take the consequences of the updates on new games, or those through the pipeline. At this rate you're hosed so take it completely offline, stop using wiiware, and stop using new bought games as you're going to have to swipe it all to win and even then some games won't run. Suck it up, man up, and deal with it...you own the hardware, but not the software whether you like it or not. You got one license and you will abide by the terms of it or you won't play at all.

I hate taking this side as I hate it too, but I'm not going to be some whiny deluded fool trying to spout off and act all badass like one who thinks they know better when they very patently obviously do not. Personally I like the HB channel when it is used for 'good' and not theft, but you can thank the turds out there who steal everything from having that come under threat.

[Lucas]

What we're seeing here is what I like to call "The Initial Push". People start abusing homebrew software by pirating current retail software, and the company in question (this time, Nintendo) begins the initial push to crackdown on homebrew. The one thing they don't realize though is that there are more of us than there are of them. This is why corporate suppression never works. The more a corporation pushes the homebrew crowd, the harder they'll fight back. Nintendo is now experiencing what Sony started to feel in 2005 with the PSP.

The fight will result in a continual back and forth of updating and cracking. It will continue to go back and forth until the Wii's time at market passes and the homebrew crowd completely takes over the then-abandoned hardware. They feel victorious, only to loose interest in their victory because now there is a more powerful device on the market to replace the Wii, and the homebrew crowd wants a piece of it. Then the war starts all over again. Rinse, repeat.

Yes Jeff, you are correct in the legal sense, but that doesn't mean this fight is going to end anytime soon. It's an endless cycle and will go on regardless. I intend to enjoy the spoils and extra functionality of the feud myself while staying within my moral boundaries.

[MikeWolfskin]

Oh-no! Does that mean I'm going to video game hell for sinning against Nintendo? ;) Hacked my PSP a long time ago. I have no regrets, and there have been no consequences. Sony gets money, I get freedom. I'll be doing the same thing here. Thanks.

Funny but your choice does have a negative effect believe it or not. The negative effect is you have to deal with Nintendo every time they update to get rid holes in there own system.The other negative effect is you have voided both warranty and terms of serves. Lets say your console fails there going to find out and not repair your system with in there rights and then your screwed, or have to pay huge to have some third party fix for you.

And on that PSP hacked part, whatever happened to "I'm no Pirate"?
Yeah your a big fat liar as I told you where long ago, your a Pirate getting illegal games by modding your console. This was again your choice live with it. I don't care that your doing it, I don't find it's right but again I don't care in truth.

What I do care is that you all never just come out say the truth which is "I'm a Pirate". That and I wish you would all stop crying everything Nintendo updates there console to try and keep you Pirates at bay. What else is new of coarse your hacking illegal games and features, of coarse Nintendo is hacking back to keep you from losing them cash, big deal, get over it!

Where going to be cool when you come and say your a Pirate like you are. Also stop with the "Oh My God" I'm going to Nintendo hell trash talk, I clearly don't care about Wii or Nintendo as much I used to .

[Tanooki]

K mike...Ritalin?

Lucas whine as you please, but the fight could end very easily and soon though if Nintendo figures out the holes like Sony did with the PSP. The PSP3K is uncrackable. The biggest minds that nailed the last two revisions have been unable to get even close to it and as I said already resorted to gutting a 2K into a 3K shell to use the nicer screen which is hardly a 'hacked' system. If Nintendo can find out how people are injecting those 'wad' files that allow bootlegged WiiWare/VC/HB channel(and the like) to be injected it's over and finished without a hardware mod requiring chips which would drastically cut down on the % of pirated stuff which would be a victory. If Sony can do it on PSP I think Nintendo can do it just as easily so on their end too. Each version and now silent version people get will help put the nail in that coffin.

As crazy as mike is acting he is right that you do legitimately have no good right to complain as what you're doing ultimately is wrong and against the terms of use of the system so when they fix it, that's your peril. Even if you're using the HB thing for good purpose technically it's still being a pirate, just a different flavor of one who isn't jacking thousands of dollars in games meant for the Wii alone. Hell even I'm kind of fine with that as if I knew how to do it w/out doing any irreversible hardware hacks I'd probably have stuffed the HB channel on there for a couple things from other regions or home made.

[Smokey]

Wrong? Maybe in a legal sense. But how can this be deemed acceptable? If we won't let our own government pull this ****, why are we letting some Japanese entertainment company do it?

[Rensa]

Well, again, I support Ninty's legal right to update its console and block channels it doesn't like.

That said, I enjoy the Homebrew Channel and intend to do whatever I can to continue using it. If that remains not accepting future updates (assuming awesome games of the future don't require them), so be it. I also don't think punishing HBC users is a smart way to go about tackling the problem.

[Tanooki]

The government controls every bit of the society you live in, Nintendo controls a $250 piece of hardware...talk about totally not staying within the scope of reality.


Rensa I agree entirely, but how could they block the HBC only and not the rest as that would leave a huge hole in the security open.

[Rensa]

Rensa I agree entirely, but how could they block the HBC only and not the rest as that would leave a huge hole in the security open.
I don't expect them to. I don't see it as a case of right or wrong, only people (namely Nintendo and I) with diverging interests.

But yes, I think Ninty would be better served making the case for buying legitimately more compelling for fringe pirates. Hardcore piraters can rarely be broken; it's those will actually buy from you if you make the deal good enough that need to be won over. And often those users will simply walk away if you make piracy frustrating and hard rather than non-piracy easy and compelling.

[Smokey]

The government controls every bit of the society you live in, Nintendo controls a $250 piece of hardware...talk about totally not staying within the scope of reality.

Don't play stupid here. We don't like the government playing big brother and doing things without our permission. If it's so powerful and we don't let it pull this stuff, why is Nintendo getting away with it, and why are you so resigned to it? It's not like Nintendo has more moral rights to control our property than the government does.

[Tanooki]

Because I'm not a simpering whiner who thinks that every last piece of information should be free. I don't like the government playing big brother either, but Nintendo isn't the gov't and it's not playing big brother either. You bought the hardware, so I did I. The difference is that when I bought it I bought it knowing that I didn't own the software, I'm licensed it, and under the license I have to follow the terms or shut it off and sell it. For some sad reason you seem to lack the ability to understand that very easy term to grasp. This isn't about morality, it's about intellectual property rights, which all hardcore and many fringe pirates have a huge problem getting as reality which you're displaying fantastically well.

I also find this hilarious you guys are whipping on Nintendo for the same crap that Sony and MS have been doing since the last generation with system updates and revisions. Oh no I can't use my hardware to do illegal crap whatever will I do? Oh yah, that's right. Cry about it and act tough like I know better than the company who designed the system and licenses the software. You know stupid arguments like these are as much a threat as Nintendo and friends when it comes to more legit practices such as emulation on the computer.

[Blinger101]

However, as I pointed out, as far as homebrew is concerned anyway, Microsoft has taken a step in the right direction with XNA Game Studio. They're giving the community the tools for FREE to create their own games on the 360.

As far as hardware is concerned, then I'm in agreement in that hardware mods are definitely wrong (and, depending on what you do with it, illegal).

[Smokey]

However, as I pointed out, as far as homebrew is concerned anyway, Microsoft has taken a step in the right direction with XNA Game Studio. They're giving the community the tools for FREE to create their own games on the 360.

Exactly. Nintendo should be embracing the Homebrew Channel, not trying to get rid of it.

[Tanooki]

^Hahahaha they can't, are you blind? If they embrace that, they're embracing a hole in their system security that allows less than genuine scumbags to pirate their software blind. Blinger as least gives a valid point though that MS did, and it would be nice if NIntendo went that route because at least they have a closed security hole, and those who want to try on legit stuff can.

[Darc Requiem]

Good lord. So much whining in this thread. If you guys want use the homebrew channel that's fine with me, but given the fact that it's a window to piracy do you honestly expect Nintendo to not try and stop it. Just because you guys aren't pirating games doesn't mean their others that are not. The hardware manufacture has a right to prevent you from having the ability to steal their software. If you are going to use the channel you just have to deal with the fact that Nintendo is going to do their damnedest to keep it shut down and/or inconvenient as possible.

[Smokey]

^Hahahaha they can't, are you blind? If they embrace that, they're embracing a hole in their system security that allows less than genuine scumbags to pirate their software blind. Blinger as least gives a valid point though that MS did, and it would be nice if NIntendo went that route because at least they have a closed security hole, and those who want to try on legit stuff can.

I defy you to show me numbers that indicate that pirates are really robbing Nintendo of significant amounts of money through the Homebrew Channel. And since Nintendo is raking in record profits, that significant amount should be pretty significant.

[Rensa]

No, Tanooki has a point. There are myriad problems with supporting a hole in your own software, not the least of which is the fact that people have total reign over your hardware and can hence put it into unstable states. If you're seen to be supporting that, your customers' expectations of quality are significantly lowered.

The thing that separates the XNA technologies from the Wii homebrew scene is that the former is a safe homebrew environment. That is, all the code you use is wrapped up in a safety net, so if you mess any of your code up you know the damage is confined to your code and won't bring the system down (or, if it will, won't do any permanent damage to it).

Ninty should have made a safe alternative to the HBC. It's quite likely that if it had demand for the HBC would be significantly lower and confined to core pirates (OMG, now I can't stop thinking of the phrase 'casual pirates', lawl).

[MR EPIC]

Just because you guys aren't pirating games doesn't mean their others that are not. If you are going to use the channel you just have to deal with the fact that Nintendo is going to do their damnedest to keep it shut down and/or inconvenient as possible.

This should have been said pages ago. The thread is yours.

[Rensa]

This should have been said pages ago. The thread is yours.
It was (http://forums.kombo.com/showpost.php?p=501341&postcount=24) said pages ago :P

[Tanooki]

Uhh Smokey you're ignoring facts again. You're too caught up on the HBC alone. The HBC uses the same cheap hacks and exploits pirates use to do much more nefarious crap short of hard modding the system. Nintendo can not afford to cherry pick out and play favorites to keep you HBC users happy because if they do that, they have to leave the rest alone too as a hole is a hole.

Rensa got the point entirely, re-read his post but that's the exact sentiment there I have and I'm still trying to get across. Nintendo if anything did wrong not having the thing MS did that opened the door to homebrew types, but that is there choice ultimately and had MS never done this that wouldn't even be a bargaining chip in this argument.

Sadly they have to close the holes to stop the rampant commercial game piracy, not the little hacks people do for fun. The same type of hole that lets a thing like HBC run will also allow a HK pirate to sell copied Wii discs all fake professionally so that can be set to run using the HBC or a like method with a copied file exploiting the same hole. That same hole also allows for those heaps of ISOs online of Wii games on bittorrent, etc to get run as well. Crap happens...just going to have to deal with it because eventually they'll shut down the HBC to shut off all the bs and will keep closing a door that opens until they run out such as with the PSP 3000 units now that are unhackable.

[Smokey]

Uhh Smokey you're ignoring facts again. You're too caught up on the HBC alone. The HBC uses the same cheap hacks and exploits pirates use to do much more nefarious crap short of hard modding the system. Nintendo can not afford to cherry pick out and play favorites to keep you HBC users happy because if they do that, they have to leave the rest alone too as a hole is a hole.

Rensa got the point entirely, re-read his post but that's the exact sentiment there I have and I'm still trying to get across. Nintendo if anything did wrong not having the thing MS did that opened the door to homebrew types, but that is there choice ultimately and had MS never done this that wouldn't even be a bargaining chip in this argument.

Sadly they have to close the holes to stop the rampant commercial game piracy, not the little hacks people do for fun. The same type of hole that lets a thing like HBC run will also allow a HK pirate to sell copied Wii discs all fake professionally so that can be set to run using the HBC or a like method with a copied file exploiting the same hole. That same hole also allows for those heaps of ISOs online of Wii games on bittorrent, etc to get run as well. Crap happens...just going to have to deal with it because eventually they'll shut down the HBC to shut off all the bs and will keep closing a door that opens until they run out such as with the PSP 3000 units now that are unhackable.

Even if we're talking things other than the HBC, I still want to see proof that piracy and this resale business you speak of is really such a rampant thing as you're making it out to be. It can't be as bad as all that if Nintendo is still not only outselling everyone else, but doing it by leaps and bounds and raking in record profits while doing so.

[Rensa]

Even if we're talking things other than the HBC, I still want to see proof that piracy and this resale business you speak of is really such a rampant thing as you're making it out to be. It can't be as bad as all that if Nintendo is still not only outselling everyone else, but doing it by leaps and bounds and raking in record profits while doing so.
I'm not really sure how this is relevant... it's not like you shouldn't take action on piracy until the moment your profits hit the red. Besides, we're talking about a hypothetical, since Nintendo doesn't support the HBC yet; any figures presented are meaningless. Finally, as I pointed out earlier, most of the damage such a move would do is not in the direct increase in piracy but in the indirect damage Nintendo's reputation would take (or would be perceived to take).

[Lucas]

Look, there are ways around the Homebrew blocking updates, and I intend to use them so I can play the games Nintendo refuses to bring to my region. Nothing is going to change this, so I'm through with this debate as soon as I call out this attack on my character.

Funny but your choice does have a negative effect believe it or not. The negative effect is you have to deal with Nintendo every time they update to get rid holes in there own system.The other negative effect is you have voided both warranty and terms of serves. Lets say your console fails there going to find out and not repair your system with in there rights and then your screwed, or have to pay huge to have some third party fix for you.

And on that PSP hacked part, whatever happened to "I'm no Pirate"?
Yeah your a big fat liar as I told you where long ago, your a Pirate getting illegal games by modding your console. This was again your choice live with it. I don't care that your doing it, I don't find it's right but again I don't care in truth.

What I do care is that you all never just come out say the truth which is "I'm a Pirate". That and I wish you would all stop crying everything Nintendo updates there console to try and keep you Pirates at bay. What else is new of coarse your hacking illegal games and features, of coarse Nintendo is hacking back to keep you from losing them cash, big deal, get over it!

Where going to be cool when you come and say your a Pirate like you are. Also stop with the "Oh My God" I'm going to Nintendo hell trash talk, I clearly don't care about Wii or Nintendo as much I used to .

Really Mike, piss off. If you had read the post correctly--which you clearly didn't--you would have seen me clearly say that I ripped the PSP games I own. Hacked PSP firmware lets you rip your UMD discs directly to the memory stick for remote play. When you run your games off the memory stick, it keeps the UMD motor off which saves up to 30% battery life for actually playing games. I didn't pirate a damn thing. I just used a homebrew enabled feature that is very similar to a feature Microsoft added to the Xbox 360 a couple of days ago.

Now, I'm done with this debate because we're not going to see eye-to-eye, and we're also getting into personal attacks. I don't tolerate that.

[Tanooki]

Rensa it's irrelevent. He's trying to make a point that's pointless. He wants unreleased numbers by Nintendo showing specifically how the HBC cuts into their profits. He's asking for something that doesn't exist because Nintendo wouldn't weigh just one small hack of many, they'd look at all of them and construct losses between those injected into the system and those on bootleg discs. He's also trying to contort what I said when I used the word rampant as I meant the hacks on the whole, not just his precious HBC. As I said, if you leave any hole open it'll get exploited, so when the others go down the HBC will go with it to patch things up. Like Lucas said about Mike, this is pointless to keep going on with someone who won't see reason as it'll just fall into personal insults and the rest and get nowhere.