Who are you voting for?

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

It's time folks, the election's right around the corner and history will be made. Let me know who you're voting for on the 2nd, or who you've already voted for, and post your reasons (if you want to).

Also, to make things more interesting, go ahead and add who you think will win the election anyway.

Vote!

[Tanooki]

McCain/Palin - Obama's tax plans, his ideas how to pay for his social welfare/improve projects, lack of any experience on world affairs, and his good level of secrecy about certain things is a huge turn off. I think he's a better speaker and could be a great guy to be around and get a helping hand from, but I think he's too early going into it and is a big mistake people are buying with that word change he tosses around. McCain to me is a tested candidate, strong credentials across the board in most cases, and very fit for the position and his big bite into slimming government and cutting out stupid pork I call a necessity right now with the budget in the crapper. McCain to me would be a good spot to not raise taxes which is a horrible thing to do in a recession while finding the money but fixing up overspending and bloat elsewhere, and anyways you need a counterbalance to the congress so it's not a free for all on stupid ideas.

[Smokey]

Obama/Biden

[Lizzaroni]

Probably a write-in, depending on how things look in the booth (really, I am still not entirely sure how to do it with the old school voting booths we use.)

[Hottotty]

I didn't realize America has a green party. Why do the other folks get so little attention? In Canada, Green can go an election without taking a seat, but they're still included in every debate, conference, etc.

[Coral]

I didn't realize America has a green party. Why do the other folks get so little attention? In Canada, Green can go an election without taking a seat, but they're still included in every debate, conference, etc.

:P as of this year, I dont think they were included last election. That woman didnt even win her own riding. lolz

[Hottotty]

They didn't have a party-majority elected leader last time. I am really sad she lost her riding, tho. She's just amazing.

[Smokey]

I didn't realize America has a green party. Why do the other folks get so little attention?

Actually, it's getting to where third parties are getting more attention. The Libertarian Party is almost the official third party of the US.

[Rensa]

Our Green party actually did really, really well last election, what with climate change and water management being such big issues in 2007. They got like 8% of the vote last time 'round.

[Lovebird]

I didn't realize America has a green party. Why do the other folks get so little attention? In Canada, Green can go an election without taking a seat, but they're still included in every debate, conference, etc.

I can answer that for you. The American Presidential Debate Committee is privately owned, funded by corporations and lead by former chairmans of both the Democratic and Republican parties. It used to be run by League of Women Voters, but in the 80s was hijacked by corporate politics. As such, people like Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, Chuck Baldwin, etc. can not debate. Why? You need to poll at 15% in five different national polls I believe to be considered for debate. The last time they let a third party into the debate was Ross Perot, and as a result, he got 19% of the popular vote. So in other words, if they let third parties into the debates, the people see them and know there are other options, and then they vote for them. And god forbid someone other than a democrat or republican makes it into office.

In 2000, Ralph Nader was a presidential candidate, but was not invited to debate. He did, however, have a ticket to watch the debate. He was not allowed into the debate and had he tried to get in, he would have been arrested. In 2004 Michael Badnirik and David Cobb, presidential candidates with the Libertarian Party and Green Party respectively, were arrested at the debates in St. Louis for trying to enter.

In 2004, a poll of Americans concluded that 54% of citizens would like to see 3rd parties debate. A more recent poll showed that more than half of Americans polled want Bob Barr to debate and just under half want Nader to debate.
It's not a fair process, it is completely biased, and keeps the American people from being informed about their other options.

[Tanooki]

^And there is the disgusting reality of that, shame the League of Women Voters lost that. That there is why you have to vote for either of the primary parties based on whoever on either side falls more in line with your beliefs because when it comes to the Senate (except rare cases) and the President only smaller spots are within reach.

[Lovebird]

I don't have to. I refuse to vote for a "least-worst" candidate. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather vote for someone who will lose who I believe in than someone who will win but surely betray me later.

But as for going for the smaller seats, I agree. It's important to try and get people of merit from third parties on the local and state level. Though the presidential seat is a long shot, I think it's important for Americans to know that third parties have the big picture, as well as the smaller picture, in mind.

[Lucas]

I'm voting for Obama for reasons my fingers are too tired to count, but I still am of the belief that McCain will win by the narrowest of margins thanks to some surprise we'll probably see tomorrow morning and/or the rigging of voting machines and the lack of voting machines/flexible hours in poorer districts like what is happening in Virginia right now.

It always amuses me how Republicans were all so happy when they controlled all three branches of government, yet scream for balance (aka gridlock) when the other side is looking at throwing over the incumbent majority.

Still, my guess is they will get that balance. Polls really are a poor source of prediction since people tend to flip flop as it suits their mood, so I'll be pretty surprised if Obama actually manages to win on Tuesday.

Eternal pessimist be I.

[Lizzaroni]

I've said it before, if I was betting I would put my money on Obama. I can understand not wanting to get cocky, but the pessimism of Obama supporters online is just astounding.

[Hottotty]

My guess is that they've been betrayed by the voting system enough to remain skeptical.

[Rensa]

Maybe you need to form an independent presidential debate committee...?

[Tanooki]

Lucas we can only hope for such well rigged machines. McCain like him or not has the right experience for the job, Obama needs another term in the senate to bake in that oven before being ready to serve. I didn't like it totally with the R holding both places of seating at all. I did at first for a bit, but then realized how awful it can get. You just can NOT have one party left unchecked outside of the supreme court as it's trouble. I see with Pelosi, Reid, and then Obama in there this place swinging so far to the left of center it could get ugly, well beyond what most level headed dems would even care for in time and that's disturbing.

I'd rather see McCain and the lib congress in play because you'd end up with moderate legislation and supreme court picks. I'd hate to see far left judges and laws put into place to where the constitution could end up being reinterpreted. Sadly though I think Obama has the good odds going into it. I'd say by 2hours of polls closing in the east you'll get a feel.

[Smokey]

My guess is that they've been betrayed by the voting system enough to remain skeptical.

That and somehow Florida will manage to **** things up for the Democrats. Again. You Floridians (I except Patrick from this remark, having moved there relatively recently) need to learn how to operate your ballot system. Hopefully you've gotten it right sometime in the past eight years.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

I'm about to go to bed, but here are ten reasons why Barack Obama is my candidate:

1) I believe healthcare is a right, and not a privilege or a responsibility, and we need to start moving toward making sure every American is insured.

2) I believe in a foreign policy grounded in diplomacy, respect and maturity, not through ignorance, fear-mongering and giving our enemies the silent treatment.

3) I believe an Obama presidency will transform race relations in America and help mend the tacit schism between whites and minorities.

4) I believe the war in Iraq was an erratic and ridiculous effort and should end immediately.

5) I want to see real action for energy independence, and believe a President Obama is more committed to the fight than a President McCain.

6) I want America to regain its tarnished standing in the world, and a transformative, inspirational figure like Barack Obama will help make that happen.

7) I feel more comfortable under a President Obama because he has shown good judgement, scholarly intelligence, and pragmatism. I would feel more safe under a President Obama because I know that he will use his head, not his gut, to make decisions that affect me and everybody else.

8) Barack Obama has garnered an unprecedented level of respect and admiration from people around the world; he is an inspirational figure on an international scale.

9) Global warming is a serious issue that needs to be addressed on a federal level, and I believe Barack Obama is more committed to the fight than John McCain.

10) I don't feel safe nor proud under a President McCain, who doesn't represent my political views, has shown erratic behavior, weak judgement and unprofessional temperament, and represents a political succession of George Bush's eight years of destructive policies.

I believe that Obama follows in the footsteps of John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan; he is a transformative figure that (if the polls aren't lying) will rally a nation around a higher sense of unity and purpose, and will create a real turning point in how politics will be perceived forever. Americans haven't always had the best taste in choosing a president, but I have the feeling that America will get it right this time.

[bountyhunter]

guess

[Lucas]

Looking back, this is probably the greatest campaign any of us will live to experience. I've had fun, we've all had fun. It's been great. The American political landscape hasn't been this energized since the 1960's.

I also look back though and realize that we liberals have all been too hard on John McCain. Deep down, I think he is still a little bit of a Maverick (as much as I loathe that term). His record did show that in the past. I understand though, that the John McCain of 2000 wasn't winning last year, with Mike "I can play a bass!" Huckabee doing better than he was. His campaign was a mess because his honorable tactics of the past didn't resonate with the modern Republican party. That's why the campaign he has run since has been so trashy. They wouldn't accept him unless he played by their rules, so in his quest for the presidency, he did just that and it got him on the ticket. I blame him for Sarah Palin. That's the single most irresponsible thing any American politician running for high office has ever done. But I blame him less for the party tactics, because I figure most of it wasn't his idea.

I don't agree with him on most anything anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't like him. I just don't want someone with his beliefs, temperament, and judgment in the White House. I mean, I love the guy as a person. I'd give anything to get to sit down and listen to some of the stories that guy has to tell. But I wouldn't vote for him, now or in the past. It's nothing personal, and I think all hardcore liberals have taken this a little to personal. But of course, how can you blame them with the stakes the way they are? Same goes for the other side. I just hope for the health of the nation, we can put all the anger aside Wednesday morning.

So, while this election has been the one of the most exciting times to be alive, I'm glad this is the last day. It's like a strange mix of excitement and exhaustion. I'm early voting today since I need to be at class tomorrow for most of the afternoon.

It's been fun fellas. See you at the finish line.


Lucas we can only hope for such well rigged machines. McCain like him or not has the right experience for the job

So much for Democracy huh? You see, that's the difference between you and I. I would be okay loosing fair and square. Depressed as hell, yes. But if you loose fair and square, then you can at least make peace with it. I still haven't made peace with 2000 because we all know that election was stolen. 2004 I'm okay with. Whether he deserved to be there or not, Bush won that one because Kerry was a corpse. Yet the modern-day Republicain party has still adopted a "win at all costs" mantra. Democracy, fairness, and the will of the people be damned. Democrats are more laid back (see: pussies) and less willing to take the drastic and questionable steps which only helps add to their historically losing record.

That's why I'm so amazed Obama has gotten this far, and why I'm so wary of shenanigans going into Tuesday. If you would actually hope for a skewed result Tuesday, then I question your beliefs in the fundamentals of this country. I'd rather loose fair and square than to know I undermined the whole purpose of this great nation.


On another note, it's funny how Canada with the largest landmass of any country can know the results of an election within hours, while we'll probably be re-counting ballots well into Wednesday night.

[Darc Requiem]

I already voted via absentee ballot for Obama/Biden. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see McCain win. The race is going to extremely close. I remember Doug Wilder was up by like 6 or 7 points when he ran for governor in Virginia and he barely won. God help us if McCain wins and for whatever reason he passes on. You think Bush was bad, if Palin is charge....we're done for.

EDIT: BTW, I remember getting grief when I called Joe the Plumber a fraud. Is anyone going to tell me that this guy isn't fraud at this point?

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Looking back, this is probably the greatest campaign any of us will live to experience. I've had fun, we've all had fun. It's been great. The American political landscape hasn't been this energized since the 1960's.

I also look back though and realize that we liberals have all been too hard on John McCain. Deep down, I think he is still a little bit of a Maverick (as much as I loathe that term). His record did show that in the past. I understand though, that the John McCain of 2000 wasn't winning last year, with Mike "I can play a bass!" Huckabee doing better than he was. His campaign was a mess because his honorable tactics of the past didn't resonate with the modern Republican party. That's why the campaign he has run since has been so trashy. They wouldn't accept him unless he played by their rules, so in his quest for the presidency, he did just that and it got him on the ticket. I blame him for Sarah Palin. That's the single most irresponsible thing any American politician running for high office has ever done. But I blame him less for the party tactics, because I figure most of it wasn't his idea.

I don't agree with him on most anything anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't like him. I just don't want someone with his beliefs, temperament, and judgment in the White House. I mean, I love the guy as a person. I'd give anything to get to sit down and listen to some of the stories that guy has to tell. But I wouldn't vote for him, now or in the past. It's nothing personal, and I think all hardcore liberals have taken this a little to personal. But of course, how can you blame them with the stakes the way they are? Same goes for the other side. I just hope for the health of the nation, we can put all the anger aside Wednesday morning.

So, while this election has been the one of the most exciting times to be alive, I'm glad this is the last day. It's like a strange mix of excitement and exhaustion. I'm early voting today since I need to be at class tomorrow for most of the afternoon.

It's been fun fellas. See you at the finish line.




So much for Democracy huh? You see, that's the difference between you and I. I would be okay loosing fair and square. Depressed as hell, yes. But if you loose fair and square, then you can at least make peace with it. I still haven't made peace with 2000 because we all know that election was stolen. 2004 I'm okay with. Whether he deserved to be there or not, Bush won that one because Kerry was a corpse. Yet the modern-day Republicain party has still adopted a "win at all costs" mantra. Democracy, fairness, and the will of the people be damned. Democrats are more laid back (see: pussies) and less willing to take the drastic and questionable steps which only helps add to their historically losing record.

That's why I'm so amazed Obama has gotten this far, and why I'm so wary of shenanigans going into Tuesday. If you would actually hope for a skewed result Tuesday, then I question your beliefs in the fundamentals of this country. I'd rather loose fair and square than to know I undermined the whole purpose of this great nation.


On another note, it's funny how Canada with the largest landmass of any country can know the results of an election within hours, while we'll probably be re-counting ballots well into Wednesday night.

If John McCain won the Republican Primary in 2000 (and I was old enough to vote), I would have fervently picked him over Gore. I had tremendous respect for John McCain in 2000; he was an independent thinker who was painfully blunt on common sense issues, and he definitely resonated with me. John McCain as a 2008 candidate is like a completely different person. He's become a Bush puppet, and has become so concerned about winning an election that he's forgotten what made him so appealing a politician in the first place. Not only has he flipped on several major issues over the Bush presidency (immigration reform, tax cuts, Iraq war timetable, Roe v. Wade, the list goes on), he's fallen victim to the mud-slinging Rove-ian campaign tactics that he once condemned. He has lost his integrity, he's abandoned almost everything he represented in the past, and has chosen a running mate that belongs in the PTA, not the White House.

I think the Republicans need Obama to win because they need to take four to eight years to reconfigure their platform and find a real candidate to rally behind. John McCain never really represented the Republican party anyway, and most of this fervor that's ensued around his campaign is due to either Sarah Palin, or the fear of seeing a black man running the country. I do think McCain's future is making history in the senate; I do not think the John McCain of today would make a good leader.

[Darc Requiem]

Yeah the McCain of 2000 would have crushed Gore in the election handily. McCain has spent the better part of the last 8 years selling his soul to the very people that screwed him royally in 2000. That constituency still doesn't accept him and he's alienated himself from the very people, the independents, that would have given the best chance at winning this election.

[Lucas]

Karl Rove...I'm not a hater, but if there was one person I could throw under a bus...that would be him.

[Smokey]

I believe that Obama follows in the footsteps of John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan; he is a transformative figure that (if the polls aren't lying) will rally a nation around a higher sense of unity and purpose, and will create a real turning point in how politics will be perceived forever. Americans haven't always had the best taste in choosing a president, but I have the feeling that America will get it right this time.

I sincerely hope you're talking in just an inspirational sense. Otherwise, I'd have to call some things into question.

On another note, it's funny how Canada with the largest landmass of any country can know the results of an election within hours, while we'll probably be re-counting ballots well into Wednesday night.

One word: population. They're the second largest country in terms of landmass, but they have the population of a third world country. They also seem to have a less politically corrupt infrastructure. I guess when you're working so hard to avoid being overrun by beavers, you can't really afford to have a corrupt bureaucracy, huh?:P

[Tanooki]

So much for Democracy huh? You see, that's the difference between you and I. I would be okay loosing fair and square. Depressed as hell, yes. But if you loose fair and square, then you can at least make peace with it. I still haven't made peace with 2000 because we all know that election was stolen. 2004 I'm okay with. Whether he deserved to be there or not, Bush won that one because Kerry was a corpse. Yet the modern-day Republicain party has still adopted a "win at all costs" mantra. Democracy, fairness, and the will of the people be damned. Democrats are more laid back (see: pussies) and less willing to take the drastic and questionable steps which only helps add to their historically losing record.

That's why I'm so amazed Obama has gotten this far, and why I'm so wary of shenanigans going into Tuesday. If you would actually hope for a skewed result Tuesday, then I question your beliefs in the fundamentals of this country. I'd rather loose fair and square than to know I undermined the whole purpose of this great nation.


I never said personally I'd be at peace with Obama in office, because trust me I wouldn't. His glaring lack of experience, his talk to anyone damn the circumstance foreign policy, his socialist ideas with tax dollars blind to the effect it will cause when the rich raises prices to compensate screwing us, and various others make me sick. Personally I fear him and those two crazies Pelosi and Reid in office, hell moreso those two assclowns than Obama as the last two years have shown what their promises are worth. I don't agree that 2000 was stolen, it's the system of the stupid electoral college is what is broken, but I do agree Kerry was a corpse or as I put it...Herman Munsters bastard son...zzzz.

I personally don't agree with the modern day RNC on enough things, but I agree with the DNC notably less. I know the RNC doesn't hold exclusive rights to the 'do anything to win' crap as 2006 showed that patently clear. Democracy and fairness are all fine and swell, but the system is broken and outside of some first term naive congressmen the large majority could give a crap about that, just lying to win, and then exposing those lies once in doing shenanigans as the 15%~ approval rating congress has shown...so much for working together as opposite party gov't setups should do. While historically I do agree that the Dems have been the 'pussies' party comparatively so, I disagree again over the last two years as they've shown some pretty nasty teeth even in my state saying and doing anything to get attention no matter how blatantly full of crap it is.

I too would be outright stunned with Obama being where he is right now if it wasn't for one thing, the DNCs interest in a real shake up, the desire to put the Clinton era to bed, and the more left leaning media pretty much kissing the guys ass and giving him a relatively free pass the entire time. Obama has it light compared to both Hillary and McCain as he had less hit pieces on him than either of the other two by a wide margin. McCain got turned on after being 'liked' by them and treated like all the rest showing some peoples true colors. Hillary got nailed by those questioning her abilities to just being a woman which is retarded. NBC, CBS, and CNN I feel have been in the tank for the guy pretty much once he proved he had something going back in February and just got more obvious since. So no, I'm not surprised he got this far, but I am surprised he has gotten such a free ride on a lot of stuff and far less swipes and no one calls the damn media whether it's the 'news' or the comedic crap like Letterman as it's sickening and unfair.

I made the crack about hoping for a skewed result in it having a few meanings. The polls this time around have been widely full of crap, so a skew would just be in general a McCain win which would be a laugh spitting on exit polling. Another idea behind the skew is that considering how much has been buried and contorted to protect Obama, it would almost seem fair to see some skewing just to level the playing field. And deep down he scares the crap out of me being elected, and while Palin is no walk in the park I still after over 10years trust McCain to do the right thing and hate to see the guy lose. Either way your undermining of the nation has already happened and has been year long with a lot of left out facts, misinformation, and duping of the public across the board. If there were zero bias, and lies were not allowed in ads (yah fantasy land) I think things then wouldn't be undermined and people could make up a fair decision with real facts and experienced history.

[chipotleattack]

I don't know who I'm voting for yet. I'm thinking of writing myself in.

[HGW XX/7]

I'll be writing in Stephen Colbert.

[OAR]

I'll be writing in Stephen Colbert.

You don't live in SC, therefore you will lose that one......

Anyways, If I could vote, I'd go for Barack...We need to change the change that has been changing our government

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

I don't know who I'm voting for yet. I'm thinking of writing myself in.

I'll be writing in Stephen Colbert.

And this, ladies and gents, is why we end up with Presidents like George Bush.

I wonder how long it'll take before Americans begin taking these things seriously:rolleyes:

[HGW XX/7]

My real answer is that it isn't anyone's business on the internet or in real life who it is I'm voting for. I'll be going to vote first thing tomorrow, and I'll be voting for somebody.

Serious enough for ya?

Also, Colbert would be a better President than Obama or McCain. With the way things have been going lately this country needs to lighten up and laugh. That won't happen.

[Smokey]

We need to change the change that has been changing our government

Am I the only one to realize that Obama's been posting on our boards for a few years now? Andrew, my ass...

I'm changing my vote. Cauley for prez.

[Rensa]

One word: population. They're the second largest country in terms of landmass, but they have the population of a third world country. They also seem to have a less politically corrupt infrastructure. I guess when you're working so hard to avoid being overrun by beavers, you can't really afford to have a corrupt bureaucracy, huh?
Mmm, I think it's probably more to do with the fact that your Federal Electoral Commission doesn't oversee the election itself - only its funding. Don't you have companies that count the votes instead? Sounds complicated.

[Smokey]

Mmm, I think it's probably more to do with the fact that your Federal Electoral Commission doesn't oversee the election itself - only its funding. Don't you have companies that count the votes instead? Sounds complicated.

Could be. I think a smaller population would be easier to work with, though. Less chance of ****ing up, as I see it.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

My real answer is that it isn't anyone's business on the internet or in real life who it is I'm voting for. I'll be going to vote first thing tomorrow, and I'll be voting for somebody.

Serious enough for ya?

Also, Colbert would be a better President than Obama or McCain. With the way things have been going lately this country needs to lighten up and laugh. That won't happen.

Well, when you post in a public thread, you're inviting other people to make it their business ;)

My point is that people shouldn't be fickle and apathetic when it comes to something like this; especially when the person we're electing will have a profound level of influence in the world.

Colbert's awesome, but we've already had 8 years of laughs, and things didn't end up so well.

[Hottotty]

Srsly? Something bad happened? :P

I'd vote Nader. He's so emo I'd love to see him in office with his stop-picking-on-me expression that he always seems to have on his face.

[Rensa]

I've gotta admit, I don't think the rest of the world would ever forgive you guys if you didn't vote in Obama... his approval ratings outside the US are at like 75-80% :P

(no pressure, rit? ;))

[Sean-AMN]

I'm voting McCain yet am sure he and nearly every republican will lose. First time the person I am voting for loses


I wonder how long it'll take before Americans begin taking these things seriously:rolleyes:

I am most people I know take it VERY serious

I'm voting for Obama for reasons my fingers are too tired to count, but I still am of the belief that McCain will win by the narrowest of margins thanks to some surprise we'll probably see tomorrow morning and/or the rigging of voting machines and the lack of voting machines/flexible hours in poorer districts like what is happening in Virginia right now.
.


Oh yeah.. I worry about that too... much like I worry about the thousands of fake and dead people names that have been registered democrat by acorn. Or the projected thousands of illegals who vote in elections most of which vote democrat.... I think we have more of a chance to see VF from the extreme liberal side bud... JFK all over again

[Lizzaroni]

And this, ladies and gents, is why we end up with Presidents like George Bush.

I wonder how long it'll take before Americans begin taking these things seriously:rolleyes:
Actually it's because people vote for George Bush.

Most people don't even realize their write-ins are completely hamstringed - even serious ones. I was considering writing someone in (seriously) but only official write-in candidates are counted. That is, because we use the electoral college system and a candidate needs electors, you cannot just write in any name and have it counted. You're limited even in this capacity. Your vote LITERALLY does not count unless you select from pre-chosen candidates. It's really crappy, and at best you can make a protest vote.

I didn't care for the write-in candidates so I voted for Barr. Maybe the Libertarian party can get some money.

[HGW XX/7]

Nevada has a "None of the Above" option. I wish all the candidates would get a kick in the balls (and ovaries) by having "None of the Above" be a more popular vote.

I honestly hate both of the major party candidates. Will I vote for one of them? Who knows. It's a mystery. I know for a fact all of the other votes I'll be making though. My prediction is that Nevada becomes a blue state this year. Ron Paul took Nevada, and McCain wasn't popular at all. Obama had less popular vote than Hillary, but he took more delegates. Go figure.

[Hottotty]

Actually it's because people vote for George Bush.


ha! You just gave me a Lol attack.

http://www.spaceg.com/multimedia/collection/ASCII%20art/ipa7me.gif

[Rensa]

Nevada has a "None of the Above" option. I wish all the candidates would get a kick in the balls (and ovaries) by having "None of the Above" be a more popular vote.
What would happen if "None of the Above" was the majority vote for the state?

[Lizzaroni]

What would happen if "None of the Above" was the majority vote for the state?
Then the politicians don't get those electoral votes and seriously modify their platforms to appeal to those constituents.

[Rensa]

^ Are those states re-polled later then? Is there a second round of campaigning?

[DEATHSTAR]

Oh yeah.. I worry about that too... much like I worry about the thousands of fake and dead people names that have been registered democrat by acorn. Or the projected thousands of illegals who vote in elections most of which vote democrat.... I think we have more of a chance to see VF from the extreme liberal side bud... JFK all over again

Registering a fake name to vote isn't the same as voter fraud. Keyword there being "registration". ACORN may be guilty of VRF but not VF. Now that doesn't make it right but the chances of someone actually voting on those fake registrations is near slim to none.

Are you suggesting that Democrats are manipulating illegal immigrants into voting democratic?

You also don't need to look as far back as JFK for tampered with elections, you only need to go back 2 elections for that and there was no Democrat benefiting from that.

Again voter fraud is lame no matter who does it. The election system needs a major overhaul and the Electoral college system is absolute bull**** and counter-productive to a true democracy. It's also part of the problem that 3rd and 4th party candidates don't get an equal amount of attention/coverage.

[Lizzaroni]

^ Are those states re-polled later then? Is there a second round of campaigning?
So far as I know, there would be no recampaigning. They just wouldn't get the votes.

[Rensa]

So far as I know, there would be no recampaigning. They just wouldn't get the votes.
So electoral college voting isn't compulsory, then. I know I've poked at the same point before, but my understanding of the US system wasn't great then, so I neither phrased the question nor understood the response as well back then: are a minimum number of electoral college votes required for presidency, or can the largest minority take it no matter how small it is?

EDIT: ahh, just remembered - 270 electoral college votes, right?
Each elector casts one vote for President and one vote for Vice President. In order to be elected, a candidate must have a majority (at least 270) of the electoral votes cast for that office. Should no candidate for President win a majority of the electoral votes, the choice is referred to the House of Representatives.[5] Should no candidate for Vice President possess a majority of the electoral votes, the choice is given to the Senate.[6]

[Lizzaroni]

No, Wikipedia has betrayed you, Rensa ;)

[Rensa]

Wha...?

*mind shuts down*

[Lucas]

And so the countdown to the finale rolls on...

Com'on Obama.

[Lizzaroni]

Congressional districts are so eff'd.

My mailing address is Fairport. Am I represented by Slaughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_York_District_28_109th_US_Congress.png) or Kuhl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_York_District_29_109th_US_Congress.png)? Kuhl - that little curly part (right where the Fairport dot is located on the 28th district map) is the missing part of the Kuhl puzzle (where Brighton is on the 29th district map.)

[Darc Requiem]

Congressional districts are so eff'd.

My mailing address is Fairport. Am I represented by Slaughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_York_District_28_109th_US_Congress.png) or Kuhl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_York_District_29_109th_US_Congress.png)? Kuhl - that little curly part (right where the Fairport dot is located on the 28th district map) is the missing part of the Kuhl puzzle (where Brighton is on the 29th district map.)

It is from the gerrymandering that takes place. Whenever either party gets in power they redraw the boundaries of congressional districts. It's ridiculous and pathetic. That is why the districts just about every state look so ridiculous. If one area is a stronghold for particular party, the opposition will section of that area into several different districts to minimize the impact of that particular voting block while maximizing their chances to maintain the most seats :mad:

[virion]

okay.. so this was complete bull****. i go to vote.. and the only choices for president i'm allowed is McCain and Obama. and on the ****ing ballot it said that you were not allowed to write in.. So instead of voting today.. i used the marker and wrote **** America on the ballot and turned it in.

[Coral]

.... so you did something stupid.

[Sean-AMN]

.... so you did something stupid.

Lol Well I am just happy that people are voting no matter who for!

Vote: then watch this! http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/a863be2b6f/vote-for-lando-calrissian-w-billy-dee-williams-from-fod-team

[Tanooki]

Coral and I have to agree on that, you're dumb. All you did was waste your time, not theirs as it's electronically scanned.

[Darc Requiem]

okay.. so this was complete bull****. i go to vote.. and the only choices for president i'm allowed is McCain and Obama. and on the ****ing ballot it said that you were not allowed to write in.. So instead of voting today.. i used the marker and wrote **** America on the ballot and turned it in.

Wow, what a dumb ass. You know there are other elections going on besides the Presidential election right?

[Nismo]

Went pretty smoothly, got out quickly. Voted for Obama.

Found out my 3 sisters were also registered so I went and told them to go vote. They went, 2 for Obama 1 for Mccain.

[virion]

Wow, what a dumb ass. You know there are other elections going on besides the Presidential election right?

what's the ****ing point if i can't vote for the people i believe in?

[virion]

Coral and I have to agree on that, you're dumb. All you did was waste your time, not theirs as it's electronically scanned.

i didn't waste my time really.. i was already there when i found this **** out.. so writing **** America took less time than actually voting.

[Luis Sera]

RON PAUL 2008 http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm90/sonicdeath_/patriot.gif

[Darc Requiem]

what's the ****ing point if i can't vote for the people i believe in?

So there was nobody any anyone of the races at all that you believed in? There was at six races for me to vote in for instance.

[virion]

So there was nobody any anyone of the races at all that you believed in? There was at six races for me to vote in for instance.

yes i did vote in the others.. like a voted against giving the mayor a raise. i also voted against our current sheriff.. and i voted for or against other propositions.. i was just extremely pissed about only having the choice between the two in the presidential election.. on the other election i didn't know about or much about i didn't vote for anyone..

[Sean-AMN]

Congrats to all the Obama supporters. Today is your day.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=7774490&blogID=446344967

[Tanooki]

Yup the death of the democracy we have known is on the eve of becoming a slow reality. I hope you guys like the taste of socialism that good parts of socialist-democracy ran european countries use.

I could make some nasty comment about hope, 'change', and a term ending sooner the better but that could come off being a bit too nasty.

[Luis Sera]

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm90/sonicdeath_/bawwwww.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm90/sonicdeath_/1225570785383.jpg

[Darc Requiem]

Yup the death of the democracy we have known is on the eve of becoming a slow reality. I hope you guys like the taste of socialism that good parts of socialist-democracy ran european countries use.

I could make some nasty comment about hope, 'change', and a term ending sooner the better but that could come off being a bit too nasty.

You know what I could say something extremely nasty right now but I'll refrain.

[Smokey]

Congressional districts are so eff'd.

My mailing address is Fairport. Am I represented by Slaughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_York_District_28_109th_US_Congress.png) or Kuhl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:New_York_District_29_109th_US_Congress.png)? Kuhl - that little curly part (right where the Fairport dot is located on the 28th district map) is the missing part of the Kuhl puzzle (where Brighton is on the 29th district map.)

I'm in the same bloody boat. I've been seeing ads for Hayes and Kissel for the past few months, and I've always heard about Hayes being a complete and total screwup. All of a sudden, I find out that I'm actually not in the district that Hayes and Kissel have been contesting. Turns out, I'm in the district that comprises Charlotte and surrounding Mecklenburg county, and there's just a little sliver of the neighboring portion of my county that's a part of that district. So all these years, it hasn't mattered who's been representing my district. I've been getting screwed over either way, and this will continue until boundaries are redrawn. **** gerrymandering.:(

[virion]

Yup the death of the democracy we have known is on the eve of becoming a slow reality. I hope you guys like the taste of socialism that good parts of socialist-democracy ran european countries use.

I could make some nasty comment about hope, 'change', and a term ending sooner the better but that could come off being a bit too nasty.

the death of democracy has already happened. when you can't vote for all of the candidates running.

[Lizzaroni]

suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper drunk!

[Darc Requiem]

the death of democracy has already happened. when you can't vote for all of the candidates running.

Great point. The debates are run by the two major parties. I don't see any reason why Ron Paul, Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, and Cynthia McKinney couldn't have been in the debates. That said the alternate parties honestly need to start focusing on the local level. The only way they will get into the debates and get on the national stage is to start get seats in local, state, and finally national offices.

[JValone]

I put my vote in for Obama, the race here in NC is still too close to call. I think we have a shot at the smallest margin of victory, which is interesting to me since I'm so used to Republican's steamrolling Democrats. It must be pretty weird for Darc too, our states aren't used to getting Ohio/Florida-esque battles.

One thing I will say, and this is my main concern following the major Democrat victory still ongoing: will Barack Obama rein in Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid? Those two have zero interest in working with anyone who doesn't bleed blue and they are not particularly shy about it. With a working majority will they just shove liberal bill after liberal bill down the pipeline and demand Obama sign on everything to be a good party man? Their goals are not always in line with what Obama has said, bringing the country together, reaching across the aisle, trying to get a working cross-party coalition as Reagan did, etc.

If Pelosi and Reid run amok it's going to kill any chance Obama has of endearing himself to the other side. He's going to have to compromise on certain issues to get conservatives on board, not the big ones but perhaps some smaller ones, and Pelosi in particular will not bow to anyone now that she's got all the cards.

I'm glad Obama won the presidency (I know it's not totally official yet but it's obvious anyway) but I fear what the rest of his party may have in mind. So don't pile on Jeff too much guys, he has at least a partially legitimate point. Pelosi and Reid are easily capable of blowing it in a huge way, you have to be pretty partisan to think otherwise. I'm hoping for the best.

[Smokey]

It isn't the death of democracy. If a two-party system was the death of democracy, then the United States is a stillborn baby that doesn't know it's dead. It's been like this since Washington. We already have a representative gov't, so we know things work well when they're streamlined. Why not take that to the party system. A situation like Israel, where if you can't form a coalition of seven or eight parties you lose your office and the whole shebang gets scrapped and restarted, in a place as diverse and volatile as the US? "Bedlam" would be a mild term for what would happen.

Mother****er, Pat McCrory just conceded his bid for governor. That means we get Bev Purdue, 'cause the Libertarian fella doesn't have a shot in hell. **** this ****. I know Bush turned a lot of people off to the Republican party, but this is ridiculous. I ****ing hate Raleigh and everybody out east. Those jackoffs wouldn't know a good candidate if he kicked them in the balls. All they care about is making sure no one out west gets any remotely important state office and that all the power resides in the east. ****ing jackasses.

/rant

[virion]

Those jackoffs wouldn't know a good candidate if he kicked them in the balls.

that's what it takes to get my vote. :P


update *** barack obama is president!

[prime_timer]

CNN's calling that Obama's secured the election.

[Coral]

YUP


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OMBAMA!

:D Now Ill just have to wait, 80 years for a Gay president.

[JValone]

It isn't the death of democracy. If a two-party system was the death of democracy, then the United States is a stillborn baby that doesn't know it's dead. It's been like this since Washington. We already have a representative gov't, so we know things work well when they're streamlined. Why not take that to the party system. A situation like Israel, where if you can't form a coalition of seven or eight parties you lose your office and the whole shebang gets scrapped and restarted, in a place as diverse and volatile as the US? "Bedlam" would be a mild term for what would happen.

Mother****er, Pat McCrory just conceded his bid for governor. That means we get Bev Purdue, 'cause the Libertarian fella doesn't have a shot in hell. **** this ****. I know Bush turned a lot of people off to the Republican party, but this is ridiculous. I ****ing hate Raleigh and everybody out east. Those jackoffs wouldn't know a good candidate if he kicked them in the balls. All they care about is making sure no one out west gets any remotely important state office and that all the power resides in the east. ****ing jackasses.

/rant


I really hate that McCrory lost. He's been a great mayor in Charlotte for a number of years and the city has only benefited from his tenure. We've still got a housing market that's in the positive percentages, and despite the biggest population boom in the Southeast our crime rate has not risen at a similarly exponential rate as many expected. He's a non-partisan guy when it comes to getting the job done and it's a shame that Bev Perdue, a terrible candidate that will do an equally poor job in office, rode Obama's coattails to victory. I hope McCrory takes another shot at it in a few years when it becomes clear that voters who thought Perdue=Obama were sadly mistaken.

[Smokey]

YUP


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OMBAMA!

:D Now Ill just have to wait, 80 years for a Gay president.

Don't you guys have one now? Oh wait, I forgot, being Canadian doesn't automatically make one gay. Just if he's from Quebec. My bad.:)

I really hate that McCrory lost. He's been a great mayor in Charlotte for a number of years and the city has only benefited from his tenure. We've still got a housing market that's in the positive percentages, and despite the biggest population boom in the Southeast our crime rate has not risen at a similarly exponential rate as many expected. He's a non-partisan guy when it comes to getting the job done and it's a shame that Bev Perdue, a terrible candidate that will do an equally poor job in office, rode Obama's coattails to victory. I hope McCrory takes another shot at it in a few years when it becomes clear that voters who thought Perdue=Obama were sadly mistaken.

I can't understand how people can be that ****ing blind. Purdue has never taken a clear stance on anything in her life. I caught a bit of her acceptance speech; when she said "I have always fought the status quo", I threw up a little in my mouth. No lie.

At least it won't take long for people to realize how badly they ****ed up. My only problem is that we gotta put up with her for the duration of the term.:(

[Luis Sera]

I WISH I COULD SEE THE LOOK ON PALIN's STUPID FACE.

[Smokey]

'Tis official. McCain's conceded. I think he did the right thing, and I think it helped his image. His supporters were despicable, though. Just about every time he mentioned Obama and President in the same sentence, they all booed. I could have sworn I heard people calling out certain acts that are both morally reprehensible and legally damning, too. It would have been awesome to see McCain rebuke them outright, but it says a lot about him that he at least tried to get them to shut up and accept the inevitable.

[JValone]

I can't understand how people can be that ****ing blind. Purdue has never taken a clear stance on anything in her life. I caught a bit of her acceptance speech; when she said "I have always fought the status quo", I threw up a little in my mouth. No lie.

At least it won't take long for people to realize how badly they ****ed up. My only problem is that we gotta put up with her for the duration of the term.:(

NC has been pretty fortunate. We've had a solid governor for a long time when a lot of other states haven't been so lucky. I'm sure we'll survive but people are going to be surprised that governing our state isn't quite as automatic as it's seemed.

[Lucas]

I am going to sleep better tonight than I have in many long years. Thank you God in Heaven, Obama actually did it. It feels extra good having supported him since mid-2007.

Now our only fear is that Bush doesn't burn down the White House knowing that his ass could be roasted raw in a couple of months. I bet Cheney is already packing to leave.

Yup the death of the democracy we have known is on the eve of becoming a slow reality. I hope you guys like the taste of socialism that good parts of socialist-democracy ran european countries use.

And I intend to. Thank you sir.

'Tis official. McCain's conceded. I think he did the right thing, and I think it helped his image. His supporters were despicable, though. Just about every time he mentioned Obama and President in the same sentence, they all booed. I could have sworn I heard people calling out certain acts that are both morally reprehensible and legally damning, too. It would have been awesome to see McCain rebuke them outright, but it says a lot about him that he at least tried to get them to shut up and accept the inevitable.

Indeed. I never blamed the man for the indecency of many of his supporters, yet I've met many of them who are very graceful about the defeat. Obviously Jeff isn't one of them.

[Coral]

LMAO Lucas ftw.

[Darc Requiem]

I put my vote in for Obama, the race here in NC is still too close to call. I think we have a shot at the smallest margin of victory, which is interesting to me since I'm so used to Republican's steamrolling Democrats. It must be pretty weird for Darc too, our states aren't used to getting Ohio/Florida-esque battles.

One thing I will say, and this is my main concern following the major Democrat victory still ongoing: will Barack Obama rein in Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid? Those two have zero interest in working with anyone who doesn't bleed blue and they are not particularly shy about it. With a working majority will they just shove liberal bill after liberal bill down the pipeline and demand Obama sign on everything to be a good party man? Their goals are not always in line with what Obama has said, bringing the country together, reaching across the aisle, trying to get a working cross-party coalition as Reagan did, etc.

If Pelosi and Reid run amok it's going to kill any chance Obama has of endearing himself to the other side. He's going to have to compromise on certain issues to get conservatives on board, not the big ones but perhaps some smaller ones, and Pelosi in particular will not bow to anyone now that she's got all the cards.

I'm glad Obama won the presidency (I know it's not totally official yet but it's obvious anyway) but I fear what the rest of his party may have in mind. So don't pile on Jeff too much guys, he has at least a partially legitimate point. Pelosi and Reid are easily capable of blowing it in a huge way, you have to be pretty partisan to think otherwise. I'm hoping for the best.

Yeah I'm not sold on Pelosi and Reid either. I get a Newt Gingrich vibe from them. We'll see if Obama reigns them in or not. That will be his biggest test. I am still shocked that Virginia really went Democrat this time. I knew Northern Virginia was booming for when it comes to population but to offset that the rest of the state is a miracle. I, along with my family have experience things recently in Virginia that makes this night all the more stunning to me. As I said earlier JV, I will refrain from getting ugly. I will just say this one thing. Coming off the Bush years, anyone saying this is the death of Democracy needs to buy a clue. :mad:

[Lucas]

Yeah I'm not sold on Pelosi and Reid either. I get a Newt Gingrich vibe from them. We'll see if Obama reigns them in or not. That will be his biggest test. I am still shocked that Virginia really went Democrat this time. I knew Northern Virginia was booming for when it comes to population but to offset that the rest of the state is a miracle. I, along with my family have experience things recently in Virginia that makes this night all the more stunning to me. As I said earlier JV, I will refrain from getting ugly. I will just say this one thing. Coming off the Bush years, anyone saying this is the death of Democracy needs to buy a clue. :mad:

Pelosi and Reid are totally Gingrich 2.0. My new hero needs to rein them in.

Anyway, I'm done arguing. We won, I'm happy...hell, I'm drunk as hell and have been dancing all night, but I also want to show some humility to those who didn't get their way tonight. Here's to the future of America.

[JValone]

I was encouraged by Obama's choice of words during his acceptance speech. Keeping his own party from overrunning Washington and disregarding all opposing opinion, ironically their biggest and most legitimate criticism of Bush, is the biggest challenge of the next two years. I was glad he chose to speak out to those who didn't vote for them and mentioned how he would "hear" them. If he sticks to that I think we'll be fine. Obviously I don't expect him to put aside his own initiatives all the time but some compromise is both necessary and best for everyone.

It helps that it doesn't appear the Democrats will have a 60/40 ratio in the Senate, and the fact a lot of them are eager to excommunicate Lieberman. Without a filibuster-proof lead Obama won't have quite as many totally partisan initiatives to mull over, at least in theory.

[Lucas]

Well, we would have had Net Neutrality a long time ago if not for Bush, so I assume we'll get that with some work. Energy independence is something all sides agree on, and rebuilding America and avoiding future conflicts is also another staple point we all agree on. I also hope some work can be done about the dangerous monopolistic mindset of the American corporate culture. Diverse ownership protects us from what happened to Wall Street in October. I think we're pretty well situated. I agree Josh, Obama's words in his speech were very encouraging.

Now, for the impending falls of Joe Lieberman and hopefully Dick Cheney. Should be entertaining to watch.

[Darc Requiem]

Yeah to say the Democrats were pissed a Lieberman doesn't begin to describe it. Apparently even if he had given them the 60/40 split they still wanted him out on his ass. I never really cared for the guy anyway. I think Zell Miller is less hated than Lieberman right now.

[Tanooki]

Lucas what the hell is wrong with you and people like you who just want to live in a socialist system as it's sickening. Why is it so bad that people may want to earn a steady paycheck and not want to have it distributed about to those who aren't doing as hot or aren't trying at all. I can't stand socialism. I'm actually not even angry over Obama but I am over the congress as the true insanity lies in the hands of Pelosi and Reid, two idiots who want to take away some basic rights people have under the current laws. Those two are what make me ill, not Obama.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Lucas what the hell is wrong with you and people like you who just want to live in a socialist system as it's sickening. Why is it so bad that people may want to earn a steady paycheck and not want to have it distributed about to those who aren't doing as hot or aren't trying at all. I can't stand socialism. I'm actually not even angry over Obama but I am over the congress as the true insanity lies in the hands of Pelosi and Reid, two idiots who want to take away some basic rights people have under the current laws. Those two are what make me ill, not Obama.

Is there anything you don't take out of context?

[Tanooki]

Is there anytime you don't suck up to the left so blindly you can't see the blowback effect larger than just one position? We're about to inherit a huge problem if Obama doesn't stand up to Pelosi and Reid.

[Rensa]

Lucas what the hell is wrong with you and people like you who just want to live in a socialist system as it's sickening. Why is it so bad that people may want to earn a steady paycheck and not want to have it distributed about to those who aren't doing as hot or aren't trying at all. I can't stand socialism. I'm actually not even angry over Obama but I am over the congress as the true insanity lies in the hands of Pelosi and Reid, two idiots who want to take away some basic rights people have under the current laws. Those two are what make me ill, not Obama.
It really tells me just how different the American political landscape is from the rest of the world's when I see comments like that. Seriously, even if Obama brought in an America that was as socialised as other first-world countries by the end of his term, it wouldn't be that socialised. When people (not referring to you here, Jeff) start screaming terms like "Marxist! Socialist!" I wonder if they have any conception of degree, 'cause it's not like the moment Obama came in the US was doomed to become the next USSR.

[Tanooki]

And that's why I don't directly call him a marxist and a socialist like some nuts do. He just has some socialist ideas that go lock step with the socialist-democracy setups some european countries have and I'm not a fan of it as are many. Perhaps this country due to its own design is different than many others, but a lot of people here rich and even the poor who work hard to earn every dime they have, they don't want the gov't forcing them to feed it to others to spread the wealth around to make things better for those who can't do better, won't do better, or whatever reason it is the gov't needs to play big brother and in a loose sense write them a big fat check with my money who works the 40+hour/wk jobs. It just really comes off feeling like a huge lack of fairness to bust your ass all week to have more out of your take home pay going to some other prick who puts less effort or for whatever reason into their lives to be 'fair.'

[Coral]

Just ignore people like Jeff. One day in life there will be a moment where they get what they deserve. Selfish Righteous Christians.

[HGW XX/7]

Guess I can say goodbye to my good healthcare, and expect it to be replaced by long waits with sub-par service. At least I won't have to pay, right? Except y'know... in taxes... which could've gone to healthcare anyway.

I would've liked to see more Republicans win Senate and House seats. Keeps the balance of power in check. I didn't care who won the Presidency as long as Congress balanced.

It's also interesting to see that on ballot initiatives most of the time the "conservative" choice won. 3 States voting for marriage to be between a man and a woman (including California).

[DEATHSTAR]

Jeff,

The money that comes out of my checks alone (won't even mention my household) probably benefits you more than your taxes benefit me. But the thing is, I don't mind helping you out or anyone else that gets the benefit of my tax dollars. We're all a part of the same country and those tax dollars are a portion of what makes us great.

Of course no one likes to see anyone get something for nothing. And your whole complaint revolves around the unspoken term WELFARE. Conservatives hate that term and do the best they can promote the idea that Liberals only goal in life is to increase WELFARE. You'd be hard pressed to find any Liberal that supports welfare in some capacity who does so without the stipulation that it be limited duration and that the recipient be moving back to the work force.

I urge you go and meet some welfare recipients and go with them through the application process, and see the crap that they have to go through to get it. Then find someone who games the welfare system and observe how difficult that is and how the time that goes into that is like a job in itself.

I would gladly sign a bill to have your taxes exempt and get you a decoder so that every time you dialed 911 you got a bill, or everytime you drove down a public road you got a bill. At least that way you could pay your own way and not have YOUR wealth spread around.

There's a general unfairness to taxes in general when you think about it from a selfish perspective. But once you realize what that tax money enables us to do as a country and that EVERYBODY pays taxes in this country.... whether it be at a cash register or on a 1040 form at the end of the year.

EVERYBODY pays into the tax system if they spend money in this country whether you believe that or not.

[Rensa]

Guess I can say goodbye to my good healthcare, and expect it to be replaced by long waits with sub-par service. At least I won't have to pay, right? Except y'know... in taxes... which could've gone to healthcare anyway.
Who says you won't be able to buy good private healthcare?

[Darc Requiem]

Guess I can say goodbye to my good healthcare, and expect it to be replaced by long waits with sub-par service. At least I won't have to pay, right? Except y'know... in taxes... which could've gone to healthcare anyway.

I would've liked to see more Republicans win Senate and House seats. Keeps the balance of power in check. I didn't care who won the Presidency as long as Congress balanced.

It's also interesting to see that on ballot initiatives most of the time the "conservative" choice won. 3 States voting for marriage to be between a man and a woman (including California).

If your healthcare is employer provided it stays the same. If you have a private healtcare plans it almost certainly blows.

Who says you won't be able to buy good private healthcare?

Sometimes I forget you are from Australia, until I read a post like that. Good private health care in the US doesn't exist. You either get limited health care plan with no deductible or good coverage with a deductible. Unless you go to the doctor about half dozen or more times a year and plan with a deductible is practically worthless and if you are going to the doctor that often you'll probably go over you limit of for doctor visits with a no deductible plan and trips to the hospital or a specialist are going to send you hurtling towards bankruptcy.

[Lizzaroni]

Who says you won't be able to buy good private healthcare?
Because paying taxes for others' healthcare hamstrings your ability to do so, for one.

[Lizzaroni]

It really tells me just how different the American political landscape is from the rest of the world's when I see comments like that. Seriously, even if Obama brought in an America that was as socialised as other first-world countries by the end of his term, it wouldn't be that socialised. When people (not referring to you here, Jeff) start screaming terms like "Marxist! Socialist!" I wonder if they have any conception of degree, 'cause it's not like the moment Obama came in the US was doomed to become the next USSR.
It's true that people use the term "socialism" too liberally, and I think both sides are guilty of this ("I hate socialism!" "Too bad the police force and roads are socialist!") Socialism is the full control of the means of production and distribution of goods; it is full out, 100% intervention in spite of where the market is a superior mechanism. "Planning" as it is used in Socialism is not the sort of "planning" involved with a national military or building roads; these are goods that are non-rivalrous and non-excludable.* It is planning to remedy an actual market failure, not Planning in spite of market superiority.

Still, there are programs and initiatives which exist not because of that criteria but because of peoples' emotional kneejerk reactions. Anytime that someone begins adopting a Plan which works in spite of market superiority it is a problem, especially because when advocating anything that remotely resembles socialism-lite you will inevitably end up with Socialism proper (see: Hayek, The Road to Serfdom.)

*Think of them like a storm warning: you can not have individuals pay for that warning because ultimately everyone will receive it whether they paid or not. There wouldn't be a firm in the world that would opt to create such a service since the incentive to free ride would be amazing.

[Tanooki]

No offense Deathstar, but to me those are some very pretty words and very well written and stated, and while I get your point I don't agree. So be it, I'm selfish then, but I'd rather not pay for every damn person to have equal state run healthcare, have more out of my check so someone in the poverty level can absorb some of it to live a little better off of it. It may, hell it does sound cruel and calculating, but I don't honestly give a damn. I'm fine with paying normal taxes that keep the roads there and clean, feds getting their paychecks, and keeping all the wheels and gears of the system greased and working. I'm NOT in any way fine having more than is needed out of my check to go to those lesser off to help boost themselves up sucking on the government teet. If you don't have a good enough job, get a better one. If you can't get a better one get a GED or whatever is necessary to do so by using your pittance of a wage to go and earn that piece of paper or a couple units a semester in some community college, but don't expect me to feed, clothe, etc with more out of my check that already is absorbed.

Perhaps I'm bitter because the last 5 years have been damn hard and I've lived paycheck to paycheck, sometimes having to even borrow to not get hosed...but I damn well earned what little I had and didn't ask for a handout, nor a tax raise on others to make my time easier and I never would. I've had to sell off a good deal of my things I held quite dear to eat and make rent around 2004-mid2006, and only now am starting to have a pittance of a savings again. As I had to go through such **** and hell for years I have little to no respect for those who sit back, smile, and take whatever they can get out of a hardworking citizens paycheck though higher robin hood economics like taxation.

Note: Coral, I'm not religious, the above are my dark and sinister motivations I do not tend to ever publicly go into as I'm not happy about that time of my life in that respect (money.)

[Smokey]

Just ignore people like Jeff. One day in life there will be a moment where they get what they deserve. Selfish Righteous Christians.

I tried typing something that would sound civil, but I don't feel like expending the effort when you obviously don't care enough to run your ideas through any "idiot" filters. You and your ignorant assumptions can both go to hell.

[Tanooki]

Ahh be nice. He wants to act close minded and typical of that one and that's his choice. I could have said what you did, or PM'd a mod about as it does break the 'special rules' about not taking shots at another but I didn't. Let it go, his reputation here is known. When he can't come up with a real argument, you stuff someone into the little box that's easy to use such as religion, selfishness, or whatever else sounds good at the moment to try and sway another sucker into not paying attention.

[Smokey]

When I'm in the mood to be civil, I'll give that a shot. Lady Luck's been giving me hell today, and I'm not gonna take bull**** that I don't have to take.

[DEATHSTAR]

I have little to no respect for those who sit back, smile, and take whatever they can get out of a hardworking citizens paycheck

Who does? Where are these people that you speak of? How many of them could you personally point out?

I'm not saying they don't exists but your assumption that everyone the government benefits in someway is a free loader is what's wrong with your position. Assuming that everyone who ends up being helped by a government program doesn't have pride and gladly sticks their hand out is what's wrong with your position. The assumption that everyone is on a level playing field and can grind their way out of any hardship is false (congratulations on your sucess doing it though) is what's wrong with your argument. The assumption that a GED or higher education even can elevate you to a better paying job is not 100% true and is what's wrong with your argument.

I can certainly understand your position based on your personal history, I've seen hardship and struggle myself but I think your assessment of the possible direction of the incoming leadership and government is harsh and a bit overstated.

I think you'll be surprised and how painless the possible changes may actually be for you personally. If they are not painless and enough of the country experiences this pain, another change is yet another vote away in 4 years.

[Tanooki]

I speak of those near the poverty level (bit over or under) who due to whatever reason are stuck there and can't or won't move out of that circumstance. I was sub-poverty level and bounced back, mind you I have a piece of paper from a college, but with the jobs and economy I've seen around here lots of places hire on HS/GEDs and do much nicer than minimum wage. I never said people were on an even playing field, but I do believe anyone who really puts the effort in can move out of a really bad spot. Sadly there are the fools and leeches in society who would rather take the hand out than a hand up.

[Rensa]

Because paying taxes for others' healthcare hamstrings your ability to do so, for one.
That admittedly didn't give me pause for thought until I ran the figures in my head. In Aus Medicare (public healthcare) is partly funded by a 1.5% levy (extra income tax) for everyone (though there are exclusions for low incomes earners) but mostly by an extra 1% surcharge for people who earn $75k+ and don't have private insurance.

So for the average earner (about $55k per year gross) you're talking about $750 a year in extra tax for it. Basic private insurance is fairly comparable to that... although at that price you'd still be talking a good half a grand's excess for major stuff, and the cover would also be comparable to public care... the only real benefit at that price is that it's a less crowded system, so you wouldn't have the waiting lists for major surgery that are inherent to public systems.

I wouldn't say that it hamstrings people's ability to buy private insurance - especially as this is only one example of public insurance, and the value of private insurance is going to slide with the level of cover (and hence cost) of public cover. I suppose in nations with public insurance the idea is that private insurance is more of a luxury, although in practise I don't see it working like that (at least in Aus... I hear very few people use private insurance in the UK).

Although I do take the point below about the economy of public insurance:
It's true that people use the term "socialism" too liberally, and I think both sides are guilty of this ("I hate socialism!" "Too bad the police force and roads are socialist!") Socialism is the full control of the means of production and distribution of goods; it is full out, 100% intervention in spite of where the market is a superior mechanism. "Planning" as it is used in Socialism is not the sort of "planning" involved with a national military or building roads; these are goods that are non-rivalrous and non-excludable.* It is planning to remedy an actual market failure, not Planning in spite of market superiority.

Still, there are programs and initiatives which exist not because of that criteria but because of peoples' emotional kneejerk reactions. Anytime that someone begins adopting a Plan which works in spite of market superiority it is a problem, especially because when advocating anything that remotely resembles socialism-lite you will inevitably end up with Socialism proper (see: Hayek, The Road to Serfdom.)
I suppose by superior you mean more economical? Most left-leaning people would argue that the strength of a public healthcare system doesn't lie in its efficiency but in the guarantee it provides. I mean, those calculations I did above might make private seem like a good alternative for the average earner, but for someone on $40k (which is a fairly basic income for a full-time adult worker) a year it'd be pretty hard to pony up for.

So I guess wealth redistribution is what that all comes down to. Though to be fair the rich aren't just paying for others when they pay for public insurance; they're also covering themselves in the event that their financial fortunes change.