Good Guys or Bad Guys?

[MR EPIC]

Which do you prefer? I'm speaking within the realm of comic books, novels, movies, TV series etc...(not Obama vs McCain)

You may use whatever criteria you feel is necessary to determine how you define "prefer". Preferring one or the other doesn't have to mean that you necessarily want/wanted one side or the other to win a fight (but it could), but maybe you preferred a certain type of outfit one wore, their weapons, the actors who played them etc...Just have fun.


I'm voting Bad Guys for the simple fact that they were much much cooler to me when I was younger. As a kid playing with my SW action figures I much preferred playing as Darth Vader, Stormtroopers, Boba Fett, because they looked cooler and they were just more badass than Luke, Han, Leia, and Obi-Wan. With GI JOE, Stormshadow was more appealing to me than Lady J. With Transformers, Soundwave, Shockwave, and Devastator turned me on more than Bumblebee and Ratchet.

Even as an adult, Darth Maul was much cooler than Qui-Gon and the Emperor appealed to me more so than little green Yoda. Even Sauron's legions over Frodo and Samewise. Am I inherently evil? I'm not sure, but I've just happened to swing the way of the bad guy more often than not. What about you guys/gals?

[blokeymon]

I'd have to agree.

Al Pacino in The Devils Advocate.
Pinhead in Hellraiser.
Boba goddamn awesome Fett in the Star Wars films.
Gary "I'm straight and I'd **** him in this film" Oldman in Bram Stoker's Dracula.
The Gecko Brothers in From Dusk Til Dawn.
Sephiroth in FFVII.
King Bohan in Heavenly Sword.

All legendary characters in awesome films/games.

Oh sure, the good guys always win, and although the usual "start out good, bad thing happens, almost the end of the good guy, good guy rallies, good guy wins at the last moment" part of films, comic books and other media results in many a bitten fingernail, nothing can beat the first time someone sweeps onstage and makes you think "Man, dey a badass!".

[Smokey]

I voted bad guys, partly because Blokey mentioned Sephiroth. I wanna set something straight, though. Boba Fett, arguably the most badass character ever to be created, is not evil or bad. If anything, he is amoral. A professional hitman is not bad, he's just doing it for the money.

Also, "badass" doesn't equate into "bad guy". Look at Auron from FFX. Or Hiko Seijuro, if you're familiar with the Samurai X/Rurouni Kenshin anime. They're good guys, but they're both pretty badass.

[Lizzaroni]

Good guys.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/LessThanLiz/colbert-lockwood.jpg

[HGW XX/7]

Good guys.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/LessThanLiz/colbert-lockwood.jpg

What she said.

http://blogs.the217.com/capes/files/2008/01/therampagingcolbert.jpeg

[Smokey]

I wanna change my vote. Clearly Bill O'Reilly is a bad guy, because Steven "Defender of Truthiness" Colbert would only impale the monstrously evil with the red, white, and blue.

[MR EPIC]

:rolleyes: x 1000 @ this entire post.

Boba Fett, arguably the most badass character ever to be created, is not evil or bad. If anything, he is amoral. A professional hitman is not bad, he's just doing it for the money.

Like I didn't know that Boba Fett was a bounty hunter. However, given his ties with Darth Vader, the Empire, AND Jabba the Hut and his lack of hanging out with Mon Mothma I'd say that if a war broke out he'd definitely be on the side of the bad guys.

Also, "badass" doesn't equate into "bad guy". Look at Auron from FFX. Or Hiko Seijuro, if you're familiar with the Samurai X/Rurouni Kenshin anime. They're good guys, but they're both pretty badass.

I never said or even implied that good guys couldn't get badass. But in many instances the bad guy happens to be the most interesting and normally cooler by, to offset the fact that they are going to lose in the end anyway.

[Smokey]

Like I didn't know that Boba Fett was a bounty hunter. However, given his ties with Darth Vader, the Empire, AND Jabba the Hut and his lack of hanging out with Mon Mothma I'd say that if a war broke out he'd definitely be on the side of the bad guys.

Again, who's got the cash? Jabba and the Empire. Boba Fett would have sided with the Alliance just as quickly if they could have possibly outbid the Empire. Check out K.W. Jeter's series on Boba Fett. You'll find that Fett can be just as altruistic as Luke Skywalker...if the price is right.

I never said or even implied that good guys couldn't get badass. But in many instances the bad guy happens to be the most interesting and normally cooler by, to offset the fact that they are going to lose in the end anyway.

That's the implication I got. But I'll give you that one.

[Hottotty]

I'm with the bad guys, for sure.

It's curious, though. Unlike in early literature, almost all modern storytelling that actually has an antagonist ends with some sort of positive resolution. That never used to be a guarantee. As a result, the audience is now bound to be bored. Because storytellers feel obliged to give audiences some sort of happy ending, they have to find new ways of developing tension and shaking audiences from their boredom - if the ending is guaranteed, the struggle between good and evil is a lot less interesting. So there seems to be a renewed focus on bad guys: we humanize them; we sympathize with them; we respect them. Oftentimes, the bad guy is more developed and real than the hero. By doing this, the storyteller casts doubt on what we might consider a happy ending, thus renewing the tension. Of course, we all know how the story will end, but if done well the tactic tricks us long enough to keep us interested.

That's why videogames are such a bizarre anomaly. The happy ending is guaranteed, but only if you can make it that far. There's less pressure in a game to make the villain really human and relate-able, because the happy ending may never come.

[Rensa]

Good guys. When the chips are down, the good guys always win... and their wins are always more dramatic :P

Plus, good guys often end up being badder than bad guys ;)

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Hahaha, gotta love Stephen Colbert.

[MR EPIC]

Again, who's got the cash? Jabba and the Empire. Boba Fett would have sided with the Alliance just as quickly if they could have possibly outbid the Empire. Check out K.W. Jeter's series on Boba Fett. You'll find that Fett can be just as altruistic as Luke Skywalker...if the price is right.

Then tell me, what reason did Boba have to attack Luke, Han, and Chewbacca on the skiff from Jabba's sail barge? He'd already done his job and had been rewarded both by Jabba and the Empire. And how friendly do you think Boba would have been with an Alliance that he saw cut his father's head off? You can argue all day but you can't rewrite my childhood. My friends and I saw Boba as a bad guy and that's how I'll always view him.

[JValone]

I always assumed that Boba Fett went after Luke/Han on the skiff because they were still extremely valuable. Vader was clearly on the lookout for Skywalker so there's that motivation and allowing Han to escape would make him look bad since he was in the general vicinity. Also the entire group just orchestrated the assassination of a Hutt Lord, so surely if he put them down he would be rewarded by someone within that clan.

I do agree with Epic though, I think that Fett had an intentional bias towards the Empire. I'm sure he would do jobs for the Alliance if the price was right but overall I think he preferred a galaxy under Imperial control. When I was in middle school I read the Han Solo trilogy of novels which went over his origin up to Episode IV. In one of those books Fett had an internal monologue that basically stated he admired order and for that reason he sided with the Empire. All the Expanded Universe stuff is contradictory though, so that's hardly definitive.

[blokeymon]

And how friendly do you think Boba would have been with an Alliance that he saw cut his father's head off?

/discussion, srsly. Can't argue with that.

Also, Sonny in The Godfather. Abusive, dirty, cheating son of a bitch, but who doesn't love the scene where he goes to pay his brother in law a visit? Man, what a goddamn badass.

[cooperthefool]

I put my vote with the good guys.

Iron Man, Tony Stark is the most badass of all of the badasses.

[Smokey]

Then tell me, what reason did Boba have to attack Luke, Han, and Chewbacca on the skiff from Jabba's sail barge? He'd already done his job and had been rewarded both by Jabba and the Empire. And how friendly do you think Boba would have been with an Alliance that he saw cut his father's head off? You can argue all day but you can't rewrite my childhood. My friends and I saw Boba as a bad guy and that's how I'll always view him.

He was paid to be Jabba's bodyguard. His job wasn't done. Why do you think Boba Fett pulled his gun when Leia pulled out the thermal detonator in front of Jabba? He was protecting his boss. And I'm not really certain what the Alliance had to do with cutting off Jango's head. If you can attribute that to any gov't, it was the Old Republic, which became the Empire. By your logic, Fett should have been itching to join the Alliance.

I always assumed that Boba Fett went after Luke/Han on the skiff because they were still extremely valuable. Vader was clearly on the lookout for Skywalker so there's that motivation and allowing Han to escape would make him look bad since he was in the general vicinity. Also the entire group just orchestrated the assassination of a Hutt Lord, so surely if he put them down he would be rewarded by someone within that clan.

Both are pretty good assumptions, and might have been secondary reasons, but I'm still pretty convinced it was mainly because Jabba sentenced them to die, and Fett was acting as Jabba's enforcer as he was paid to be.

Run-on sentences FTW.:D

I do agree with Epic though, I think that Fett had an intentional bias towards the Empire. I'm sure he would do jobs for the Alliance if the price was right but overall I think he preferred a galaxy under Imperial control. When I was in middle school I read the Han Solo trilogy of novels which went over his origin up to Episode IV. In one of those books Fett had an internal monologue that basically stated he admired order and for that reason he sided with the Empire. All the Expanded Universe stuff is contradictory though, so that's hardly definitive.

It's not that he preferred the Empire over the Alliance, per se, but he wasn't going to be on the losing side. Fett is, above all, a pragmatist. I'm not really sure I would look at the Han Solo trilogy for a look inside Fett's head. Again, I recommend K.W. Jeter's trilogy about Boba Fett.

Concerning the EU content, everything I've read either flows unintentionally (until the books with events that occurs about thirty years after A New Hope or doesn't really have much to do with the rest of the stuff. I haven't read anything and thought "BULL****! ____ says the exact opposite!"

[Rorshach]

Good guys. Bad guys are only interesting to me when their intentions are good and then they could be considered good guys.

And besides, good guys often have a dramatic "I... can... DO IT!" moment. Those are awesome.

[Smokey]

And besides, good guys often have a dramatic "I... can... DO IT!" moment. Those are awesome.

I call that the "Little Engine Complex". I have it copyrighted and everything.

[MR EPIC]

He was paid to be Jabba's bodyguard. His job wasn't done. Why do you think Boba Fett pulled his gun when Leia pulled out the thermal detonator in front of Jabba?

1. Who said he was paid to be Jabba's bodyguard?

2. He pulled his gun out because his own life would have been in danger as well. That had nothing to do with Jabba.

3. Bottom line - He's a bad guy

[Smokey]

1. George Lucas, though I don't expect the creator of Star Wars to be able to say anything to sway you.

2. Yeah, he's watching his own ass, but he's getting paid to watch his boss' ass, too.

3. There are several stories throughout the EU (Karen Traviss is, by Lucas' own admission, the authority on Boba Fett, BTW) that beg to differ.

[MR EPIC]

I only factor in the OT for anything SW cannon, regardless of what Lucas has said or allowed. I don't get into considering comics and bubble gum strips as cannon because it could be never-ending. George will say anything is cannon to sell product.

[Smokey]

These are legitimate novels, written by well-established authors, not comics. Despite what you think, Lucas doesn't let just anyone play with his baby for a quick buck.

BTW, it's "canon".

[MR EPIC]

To you maybe, but to the real SW fans (ya know, those of us old enough to have actually seen all the movies in theaters not decades later?) the only thing cannon is the OT. It'll never be any different.

[Lucas]

I gotta' go with bad guys. The good guys may always win, but the mad guys have cooler weapons/powers and have more fun on the way down. I'll take "force choke a bitch" over force levitation any day of the week.

[Monkeylord]

Bad guys are always, and will always be, much more fun than good guys. The complete lack of inhibitions is always appealing. Good guys have limits, bad guys don't. They can and in all likelyhood will, do absolutely anything they want regardless of the quinciquonces.

[HGW XX/7]

Why am I not surprised that this thread started to turn into a "Who's who among Star Wars nerds" thread?

Powdered Toast Man was a good guy. I think that seals the deal right there.

[MR EPIC]

Why am I not surprised that this thread started to turn into a "Who's who among Star Wars nerds" thread?

Relax, kick your feet up, and I'll tell you exactly why that happened HG. Like he's done on many other previous occasions, Smokey couldn't just allow somebody to post what they wanted to post, but was determined to point out that he felt part of their post was written in error. In this case that person happened to be me and if you look at the argument from my point of view, anybody (including Smokey himself) can see that it's quite silly.

My friends and I watched the original SW trilogy as young kids, beginning with Star Wars in 1977. The next movie (ESB) was released in 1980 and the third and final movie (ROTJ, formerly known as Revenge of the Jedi) in 1983. At that point my friends and I still had a couple of years to go before we were even going to be teenagers so we probably enjoyed collecting the action figures and wearing the costumes until about 1984 or so.

Beginning with the second of those three movies Boba Fett appeared on the scene and for all intents and purposes he was known as a bad guy. Even though we all realized that he was a bounty hunter and technically separate from the Empire, anybody that would do business with the Empire and kill to make money was going to be considered a bad guy, leaving "good" or "evil" completely out of the equation. This wasn't just some crazed notion that my friends and I thought up, the entire SW world viewed Fett as a bad guy and it was pretty much as simple as that.

So now, Smokey wants to argue that Fett is indeed not a bad guy with me and even cites references from books that released starting in 1998, nearly 20 years after both my childhood and my personal experience with the Original Trilogy. He actually expects me to go back and erase my memories for the sake of a series of books that shows Fett's more "impartial" and "sympathetic" side, so he can ultimately be the victor of the argument.

It's best summed up like this: Boba Fett may not have been evil. Boba Fett may not have been part of the Empire. But because he's a bounty hunter, because of the nature of his job, and because of the people he spent most of his time with during the original trilogy (Vader and Jabba), he was definitely a bad guy. And to try and force an opposing view on somebody, especially somebody with the viewpoint that I grew up with, just doesn't make sense to me.

And there you have it HG. That is the tale of how this thread got turned into a nerdy Star Wars debate. But hey, at least we're still on topic and speaking about "bad guys". :)

[Lizzaroni]

How are bad guys more fun by default? Good guys do the right thing, bad guys do the wrong thing; the way they choose to go about doing them, or act about them, is completely up in the air. Is the vigilante fighting for justice truly less bad ass than the armed bureaucrat that defends an unjust system?

[Darc Requiem]

Why am I not surprised that this thread started to turn into a "Who's who among Star Wars nerds" thread?

Powdered Toast Man was a good guy. I think that seals the deal right there.

http://www.sobras.com/nelsondaniel/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/colpowderedtoastman_big001.jpg

How are bad guys more fun by default? Good guys do the right thing, bad guys do the wrong thing; the way they choose to go about doing them, or act about them, is completely up in the air. Is the vigilante fighting for justice truly less bad ass than the armed bureaucrat that defends an unjust system?

I should have know Liz would have brought some logic into this thread. ;)

[Rensa]

How are bad guys more fun by default? Good guys do the right thing, bad guys do the wrong thing; the way they choose to go about doing them, or act about them, is completely up in the air. Is the vigilante fighting for justice truly less bad ass than the armed bureaucrat that defends an unjust system?
Monkeylord's referring to a very specific type of bad guy - namely, this one:
The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules. And tonight, you're gonna break your one rule.
A lack of inhibition isn't an attribute of all bad guys - only some. But it's never an attribute of a good guy, which is probably more ML's point.

No, the defining attribute of bad guys is that they're bad.

[HGW XX/7]

I knew Darc would back me up.

[Smokey]

To you maybe, but to the real SW fans (ya know, those of us old enough to have actually seen all the movies in theaters not decades later?) the only thing cannon is the OT. It'll never be any different.

Um, I have seen 'em in theaters. They have been in theater several times. And don't even start this "real fan" bull****. It's elitist, and it's crap.

Relax, kick your feet up, and I'll tell you exactly why that happened HG. Like he's done on many other previous occasions, Smokey couldn't just allow somebody to post what they wanted to post, but was determined to point out that he felt part of their post was written in error. In this case that person happened to be me and if you look at the argument from my point of view, anybody (including Smokey himself) can see that it's quite silly.

Two words: WAR ROOM.

Beginning with the second of those three movies Boba Fett appeared on the scene and for all intents and purposes he was known as a bad guy. Even though we all realized that he was a bounty hunter and technically separate from the Empire, anybody that would do business with the Empire and kill to make money was going to be considered a bad guy, leaving "good" or "evil" completely out of the equation. This wasn't just some crazed notion that my friends and I thought up, the entire SW world viewed Fett as a bad guy and it was pretty much as simple as that.

For one thing, being a bad guy doesn't leave "good" or "evil" out of the equation. In case you never realized, bad IS evil. Secondly, a bounty hunter is amoral. He doesn't care who he hunts down, so long as he's compensated. This holds true in Star Wars and real life.

So now, Smokey wants to argue that Fett is indeed not a bad guy with me and even cites references from books that released starting in 1998, nearly 20 years after both my childhood and my personal experience with the Original Trilogy. He actually expects me to go back and erase my memories for the sake of a series of books that shows Fett's more "impartial" and "sympathetic" side, so he can ultimately be the victor of the argument.

I don't expect anything of you except to act rationally and realize that what you say isn't canon. What Lucas says is canon IS CANON. If Lucas said Fett skipped through meadows and shot rainbows out of his ass and said it was canon, that would be canon.

And again, for God's sake, it's "CANON", not "CANNON".

It's best summed up like this: Boba Fett may not have been evil. Boba Fett may not have been part of the Empire. But because he's a bounty hunter, because of the nature of his job, and because of the people he spent most of his time with during the original trilogy (Vader and Jabba), he was definitely a bad guy. And to try and force an opposing view on somebody, especially somebody with the viewpoint that I grew up with, just doesn't make sense to me.

Evil and bad are the same thing. Also, again, two words: WAR ROOM. I will propose an opposing view, not only because I can, but because I'm telling it how it is.

[MR EPIC]

Three words: STAY ON TOPIC

This thread is about which side you prefer, good guys or bad guys. It's not about breaking down people's posts and creating micro-debates about issues which are off-topic.

[Smokey]

You said yourself we were staying on topic, so I dunno what you're talking about.

[MR EPIC]

I said that we were talking about "bad guys" trying to humorously emphasize the fact that I felt I was right. Look you're entitled to feel anyway you'd like about Boba Fett or any other bounty hunter in the galaxy, but please don't begrudge me for calling him a bad guy because to me he always will be.