Third and final debate: Joe Plumber gets the tough questions answered.

[Hottotty]

So, making a new thread about the last debate seems unavoidable, so I'll go ahead.

While many already think this was Obama's strongest showing, I think the true winner here tonight was Joe Plumber, sitting around his kitchen table putting litmus papers on supreme court judges. Yay?

[Lizzaroni]

Joe the Plummer/Bob the Builder 2008!

[Darc Requiem]

I actually thought McCain had this debate in the bag until he brought up the Ayers nonsense.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

^ I agree. John McCain was doing a FANTASTIC job until the personal attacks topic came around, which gave Obama the chance to take offense again. From that point on, McCain couldn't recover.

So in other words, PHEW.

[MR EPIC]

Meh, it was the same old stuff as the first two debates so I tuned out after less than 30 minutes. There's only so much I can take of "earmarks", "pork barrels", and "fundamental differences".

[Lucas]

McCain was swinging until Bob brought up Ayers and McCain took the bait. Then Obama pulled a Clinton '91 on him. At that point, it was back to the stuttering and rapid blinking with recycling of talking points. He had that "deer in headlights" look at least three different times and had a hard time controlling his anger. He also flubbed up the abortion portion of the discussion completely. I heard him mock the "life of the mother" clause twice. That was the shut-down moment. Obama wins 3-for-3.

That's the end of it. Now we wait for the October/November surprise.

[Hottotty]

I am always curious where these euphemisms and colloquialisms come from. Let's catch them all! We got:

1. Pork barrels. Is there even such a thing as an actual pork barrel?
2. Joe the Plumber. This one's my favorite. Are plumbers typically who decide election results in America?
3. Sitting around your kitchen table. And yet, also in the living room watching the debate on tv. huh.
4. Mainstreet vs. Walstreet. Lamest. Tekken match. Evar.

I've forgotten so many. What have I missed?

[Tanooki]

I feel Obama didn't have this one and McCain pulled it out, not by a landslide at all, but he clearly hit on things that had value from policy to the personal issues of the attack ads conversation and shady ties. I think it really rang with Joe the Plumber as he clearly laid down Obama as a socialist with telling that guy he'd have to lose more and spread the wealth despite the fact it would hurt his business because spreading the wealth will help others too. I loved hearing McCain shove that stupid **** of 4more years of Bush crap down Obamas arrogant throat for once, and even when Obama tried a snide comeback from it, it just came off arrogant and narrowminded. Perhaps McCain had a point, he should have run four years ago with those tired lines (as it likely would have worked and in that period would have made accurately targetted sense.) I think liz has a point though with Joe the Plumber/Bob the Builder perhaps for not this time but 2012.

We know Joe was being honest and showed concern when Obama said that, so now the question is, what will Joe do? My guess is that he'll have to fire someone or reduce a few of the peoples hours to cover the losses under Obama so his business doesn't get hosed. Gee, sounds exactly like what Obama claims he doesn't want, more job loss and more financial struggling.


Totty I can give you an idea on that first one: The concept was coined long ago, not sure who started it (likely a reporter or the type) but basically projects that benefitted not the nation but the politician and his neck of the woods was considered as being a pig with taxpayer dollars, ie: pork. The term essentially was coined due to robber barons, crooked politicians giving them the money (graft) they wanted, and lots of useless bloated projects of the late 1800's and earlier 1900s.

[Hottotty]

Well, yeah. Obviously. We all know what the term is used for. I want to know why. The question, really, is what the hell is the pig doing in a barrel in the first place? In my brief life I've always known pigs to come served in blankets, not barrels. Is it a wine barrel, like a cask? Or is it like an open headed agitated barrel, like for paint? Is it a P930 Internation Standard drum, like for toxic goods? These are the questions at the root of the problem. Until I know, I won't even consider voting.

As for your critique of the debate itself, I gotta admit you surprise me yet again with your ... let's call it an "interpretation".

[Darc Requiem]

Both of them were being disingenuous on the Joe the Plumber scenario. If his business makes more than $250,000 he would pay more taxes under Obama's plan. However Obama's plan exempts small business from his health care provision.

McCain was right that the average healthcare plan is $5800, however his tax credit is not $5000 per person. Its $2500 per person and $5000 for couples and families. The average families plan is NOT $5800. Don't get me started on the fact that finding good individual health care coverage is an impossibility. You either get crappy coverage with a co-pay and limited doctor visits or adequate coverage with a deductible of at least $300. Unless your sickly an individual healthcare plan is a waste.

[Tanooki]

Yup on both, and yes healthcare sucks at this rate. I think one thing that should get looked into and no one wants to (lobbyists?) is the pricing. I am speaking of the costs to just get in the door, costs of equipment, costs of surgery equipment, and costs of drugs. I deep down believe all of them are grossly rigged, I'm talking like oil industry price of oil barrel vs gas price rigged. I get certain stuff probably does qualify, such as a living organ as they're rare, but when an ambulence visit uninsured will cost you like $1000 just for equipment, 2 guys in the thing, and gas to get there something ain't right. I'd smile if the gov't would grow a pair and nail the hospitals, transport, equipment, and doctors for their out of control pricing. The health insurance industry isn't to blame, they get hosed by those fools prices and have to raise rates or make varying levels of halfass coverage so people can get some support so they have to endlessly raise rates to cover that bs.

[Smokey]

Well, yeah. Obviously. We all know what the term is used for. I want to know why. The question, really, is what the hell is the pig doing in a barrel in the first place? In my brief life I've always known pigs to come served in blankets, not barrels. Is it a wine barrel, like a cask? Or is it like an open headed agitated barrel, like for paint? Is it a P930 Internation Standard drum, like for toxic goods? These are the questions at the root of the problem. Until I know, I won't even consider voting.

As for your critique of the debate itself, I gotta admit you surprise me yet again with your ... let's call it an "interpretation".

I think the first hurdle you have to overcome in voting is the matter of citizenship.;)

Considering that I got home about half an hour after the debate started, I decided not to bother. I figured it was gonna be the same old rigmarole in a new shade of blah. Looks like I wasn't far off.

[Lucas]

It is of my opinion that David Letterman has more integrity than the entirety of the American news media. Anybody else see the McCain drilling tonight?

[Lizzaroni]

It's the role of The Jester. Stewart, Colbert, Letterman, etc all have the ability to go further than any other 'responsible' news caster precisely because their role is not cast in a serious light.

see: that Shakespeare fella'.

[Hottotty]

^ Not unlike this very thread, when you think about it.

[Tanooki]

I missed the Letterman bit, just know McCain said he was sorry for it. I'll have to check it later at home as youtube among most things are locked out here at work. It and photobucket are the largest losses.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Man that Letterman interview was aaaaawkward.

[Lucas]

Yeah, it was. I almost felt sorry for McCain...almost. Then I realized, "Why?". These are the questions he should have been answering from the media along. It's just nobody had the stones to actually stand up and ask then until now.

Kudos to Dave. He was pretty damn hard on Obama as well.

[Tanooki]

Hey want a laugh? Remember the time Letterman was ripping on him some months back in his monologue and then McCain came out there and dished it back? Those were some of the funniest things I had seen on that show in a good while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_I3Gr-O2Ak

And here's the apology for those interested...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBqHczYJYo

I'd have embedded the first as it's small, but I forgot how.

[Lucas]

Oh yeah, I remember that. That was a great bit when McCain nailed him.

[Tanooki]

The gags were priceless going with the whole nutbag, pedo, and weirdo angle.

[Darc Requiem]

Am I the only one that finds the fact that "Joe the Plumber" is a complete fraud hilarious?

[Tanooki]

How is he a complete fraud? Drinking Kool-Aid?

I know the media is having fun trying to tear him up for asking a trouble making innocent question, but how is the guy a fraud? He told Obama he was saving up to buy a business that would put him in that area Obama wants to tax more. Should he have come out right away and said that he makes $40K a year? Should he have said that he was just one of many plumbers working for the business he wants to buy? Or should he have admitted he didn't pay all his taxes as if that didn't matter? Seriously, how is he a fraud? It's not like the guy was a plant. Obama was walking in his neighborhood outside his house, so he went out and asked a question and has since had his ass disgustingly and childishly so run roughshod by the liberal media.

[Darc Requiem]

He isn't a licensed plumber. He isn't anywhere close to buying his boss' business. That isn't media spin that is the facts. Media spin is the nit picking of him going by his middle name which is a common occurrence.

[Hottotty]

I'm with Darc. Joe asked a specific question as though it would ruin him to pay the taxes Obamadonna proposed, but he is unlicensed and unable to purchase the company he wants. He is one more over-opinionated, under-educated douche in a long line of election campaign douches.

Go to hell Joe.

[Tanooki]

Oh so you have been through his books to see if he can buy that place? Damn you're good. We know he makes 40K a year or so, but do we know how much he saves and what kind of a business loan he could get to finance the rest? I find it pretty arrogant you're just assuming he can't do something because he doesn't make what it would cost to buy it outright. I had nearly nothing and floated a $12000 line of credit a few years back to start my business I had, so don't assume crap.

Also in Ohio you don't need to be a licensed plumber to do that either, except in the city of Toledo. I saw that attack on him and looked it up. As long as his employer has a license, legally he'd be considered the 'apprentice' and wouldn't need the piece of paper. In Toledo though he would have to work with his boss and can't alone as that would be illegal due to their unique law.

If anyone needs to go to hell totty it's the goddamn press and the DNC who are tearing the guy apart. Obama is basically outside on his front lawn more or less and he goes and asks a simple question and he's being vilified for it and it's bull****.

[Darc Requiem]

Jeff the guy is a registered Republican asking a highly hypothetical question. Especially considering that he isn't about to buy his boss' business and it could be two administrations or more before is actually able to do so. His motives seem suspect. When you look at his current income, he'd make more money under Obama's tax plan and be able to save for the business faster, if you want to get technical about it. He'd only play more taxes if this hypothetical business makes over 250k and given the small business exemption in Obama's health care plan he still could end up pocketing more cash.

[Tanooki]

So being a conservative and asking a hypothetical question is a crime now? Most the questions these guys field are hypothetical unless they're being asked for cold hard facts that can be quoted. And again where the hell is your proof he's not about to buy that business. Do you have a copy of all his bank statements and savings? Sadly it wouldn't surprise me the way the press is hosing this guy to protect their candidate.

I know as someone making 40k a year he'll get a bit more back, that's a given, as is if he buys up this business he'd be losing a lot more too. The problem though is the fact a local nobody like you see nightly on these press spots where someone stumps just happens to ask a question that Obama answered just a little too honestly and it caused an uproar because it stank of socialism. I don't see how someone walking out his front door to ask a question out of nowhere can be suspect considering that's what those neighborhood meet and greets are meant to be for.

[Darc Requiem]

I make 40k a year myself that isn't the issue. He pulled the question out of his ass plain and simple. I'd like to take over the mortgage to my grandma's home to keep it in the family. That is unlikely given the fact that my job is unlikely to place me in Virginia any time soon and I won't be able to play that mortgage plus my rent for where I actually live. Let me ask either candidate about some BS hypothetical question to help me do both even though there is no way I'd be able to do so for the foreseeable future. :rolleyes:

[JValone]

The way the media has torn into this Joe the Plumber is pretty despicable. I'll be voting for Obama and I still feel that way. His question was valid even if he couldn't actually buy the business in question at this time. Maybe that was his dream or eventual goal and he didn't want to just say "I'm too poor to do it right now" in front of cameras? Who knows, but it disgusts me the way the liberal media has conducted itself recently. The only reason this is an issue is because Obama let slip "redistribute the wealth" and was too honest, not a bad flaw to have imo, and the fact is most Americans shudder at that concept regardless of their tax bracket. The media is covering for him by smearing this guy. The Obama bias is just insane on every network but Fox, and obviously the bias is the other way on that station, yet all the Dem supporters just act like they don't see it. "Biased? Oh know, that's just the truth." Yeah right. The news media has proven itself to be the slanted joke conservatives had always accused them of. In the past it was more of an undercurrent, and thus more acceptable to me, but recently it has gotten out of hand and I doubt it will return to a tolerable level. The self-righteous indignation just drips from the screen.

How come this Joe fellow gets his house marauded by news trucks but Ayers doesn't? Probably because this guy makes McCain look bad, sort of like how every crazy at a GOP rally is ranted on as if the candidate had personally placed them there himself. For all the accusations of McCain/Palin moving the attention away from important issues such as the economy, and those are valid criticisms, it seems to be just fine for these same talking heads to do the exact same thing as long as it isn't against Obama. I'd prefer that both sides address the issues.

Oh, and Obama is pretty much a moderate socialist. The only reason his supporters get so flustered about it is because it's a dirty word in America. No matter how you slice it taking taxes from the rich and giving it to citizens who pay no taxes whatsoever is redistribution of wealth. It isn't wild-eyed Red Terror communism but more Euro-style socialism. I'm not saying it's even necessarily bad, but that's what it is. It may even work, let's hope so because we're all going to find out one way or another.

[Tanooki]

Yes it is despicable JV and so is Darc siding with those turds and not getting it. Facts are facts and we know more about him than we should now, but regardless as you said it's a valid question to ask any candidate if it's on your mind and you get your shot as he did. As you said the facts are it's out of control what has been done, not just to him but the behavior of the majority of the media this season going as far as even screwing with Hillary to support their chosen one. Now, just because Obama (and you're right it is admirable) was too honest with his plans and put it in laymans terms to the plumber, somehow poor Joe was baiting him and it was a hack job to get him to look bad to cost votes. Sure...yes Joe is part of that vast right wing conspiracy the Clintons have adored since the early 90s. You are right JV that most the media has been in his pocket, except Fox that gets a bad rap (sometimes deserved) where they are digging up crap on the guy to the point it's even angering Barack that he brings them up as jokes or as points in a talk.

You're very right there is a mass level of very corrupt bias in the media before. Prior to this election you had both sides, and you'd see some twists and turns on events or campaigns, but for some odd reason this year it has been some euphoric pile of crap with a bad denial trip around it like it's not obviously happening. You are right that it is dead wrong that this Joe is getting the media equivalent of a prostate exam with a medieval mace, yet Ayers who obviously has ties to Obama is left alone completely. The sad thing is Ayers isn't even the issue it's Obama not just fessing up his real ties to the guy considering the mass levels of cash, starting his campaign in this guys house, and Obama running the executive business matters of an Ayers organization for a time. Yes I lean middle to some right on things, but that matters little to the fact I can see there's a story there and not in if Joe flosses twice a day, doesn't eat babies, or whatever crap will come out day by day to discredit a simple question that got a simple honest answer.

[JValone]

I don't actually think the Ayers thing should even be discussed, much like Joe the Plumber, I was just using it as an example since they're comparable situations. Hounding either candidate over either of these people will do nothing but distract the country from real issues. I'd much rather have the media discuss the pros and cons of the candidates respective economic policies than battle over "Obama speaks to terrorists!!!" or "this guy doesn't have a plumber's license!!!" it's just insane. Both of those things are in the past, they won't effect how either of them would run this country so it's pointless banter.

I can see where Darc is coming from, it's possible the guy was actually trying to be tough on Obama I just disagree that it's such a bad thing. Obama can handle the tough questions, I've seen him do it well thus far, so I don't understand all the media coddling other than from the perspective that they have a personal stake in the outcome of this race.

[Tanooki]

Well my take is not so much Ayers needs discussing, we know who he is past and present. I just meant that considering his background and Obama working with the guy I think there should be full disclosure of the relationship, just as much as there should be with him to ACORN which he donated over $800K to, they donated to his campaign, and he used to be their lawyer during some of their many election fraud lawsuits. I agree though that policy should be addressed primarily, social issues and relations should be inspected too on people directly tied to the individual because it shows judgment and personality problems perhaps too.

[Hottotty]

I hate to admit it, really I actually hate to, but Tanooki has a point. A totally off-topic point that skirts the issues he's been unable to address without sounding silly, but a point none-the-less. Obama hasn't been forthcoming. Why that may be is anyone's guess. He may just think his private life is no one's business. Sadly, in politics, that's just not good enough. Momma always said if you gotta keep it a secret, you shouldn'ta done it in the first place.

[Darc Requiem]

I know you all have heard of factcheck.org. You might want to visit that site if your really want to know about the Ayers issue that badly. Hell, they go in depth about ACORN as well. I think you of all people would know that Jeff.

As for my comments on the "Joe the Plumber", I stand by them. His question was disingenuous as best. Any number of us here, have things we'd like to do but won't or can't for the foreseeable future. Facts are facts and I could careless what the "turds" think about the situation.

JV the media is joke period. They don't ask any hard questions. They virtually looked the other way when Bush was building his case for the Iraq war. Everyone has claimed to see this financial disaster coming, why didn't the so called news media. The media is more interested in telling us which celebutant got a DUI or which kid Angelina Jolie is adopting next or why A-Rod is dating someone that could be from his mother's high school senior class than reporting the actual news. When they actually do get around to the important stories they editorialize them instead of reporting the straight facts at letting you come to your own conclusion.

[Tanooki]

I check factcheck.org a couple times a week or so from work. I'm aware of the info they so far have been lucky enough to dig up, but the question is...is that all of it? If so, then why when time and again Obama is asked this stuff he refuses to answer? Most people aren't aware of that sites existence so it doesn't help get word out if that really is as innocent as it is.

Totty you're right, perhaps he's like many and wants private not with public, and that's respectable and should be honored...BUT...when it comes to certain jobs, that's a luxury you are outright denied so people feel safe voting for you.

Darc on your third paragraph there on media stupidity and stalking...amen to that. It makes you miss the press of 20 years ago and back when politics were kept out of it and it was just the facts man.

[Darc Requiem]

I have to say that I liked how Bob Scheffer handled the third debate. He had good questions and seemed to try have McCain/Obama address each other as well as his questions.

[Tanooki]

Yes unless that circus on the 2nd one he handled it quite well. Shame he's up there in years as he's one of the last few dignified news reporters who aren't political assclowns and just tell it like it is.