Nintendo's New Direction: Good or Bad?

[ReaganYouth]

Do you approve of the way Nintendo is doing things with the Wii (and just about everything else)? My answer? To a certain extent, I do. I like that Nintendo's bringing in new audiences to gaming. But Nintendo, particularly their NOA branch, are beginning to worry me a little. I'm not comfortable with a lot of their statements, especially at E3. Hell, they don't even know Fatal Frame 4 even exists, let alone considering bring it to the US.

[Coral]

Its just sad. Ill elaborate at a later date.

[MR EPIC]

Nintendo's new direction is good for them as a company and bad for those who want 1st party revivals, new core 1st party IPs, and AAA games from third parties.

[Lizzaroni]

It's good if you're ten ;)

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

I think Nintendo moved in the only direction it could to stay afloat. I think that they've done the right thing to bring in new gamers, and I think they've catered wonderfully to the core gamer. I also think that today's self-proclaimed "Nintendo fans" have become martyrs, whose attitude and false sense of entitlement has blinded them of the fact that Nintendo has catered to them more now than ever before. I also think that the self-proclaimed "Nintendo fans" are not gamers, because they prefer to bitch and moan about how there are no games to play instead of going to the store and buying games to play. Sad.

[Coral]

I dont have a problem with Nintendos success. I do have a problem with them originally trying to label themselves as not being in competition with the rest, but now that theyre wining, they are competing with MS and Sony and were the best, and what were doing is the best for everyone. Youre not. Considering the Wiis success, it did not have to be as underpowered as it is. I believe it could have been a 360 in terms of power, and they would be even further in first place. Why, because more core gamers would own one, and the casuals who were shelling out big bucks to get one would have bought it.

Anyways, my main issue is with the Nintendo Diehards who want the Core gamers to believe that their favourite system is doing something amazing. It isnt. The reviews prove this. Motion controls havent made the quality of any Wii game better than any other game. Quite often they make them worse. Im sorry if this comes off as a rant to anyone, but its very annoying when people talk about "potential". Random games that are made for the wii that if announced for other systems would be ignored by some people, all of a sudden have all this potential. Red Steel had so much "potential" and was going to be the best example of controls in an fps right? Not the case. Just stop it and be realistic about games like everyone else.

[Nismo]

Good. They are making tons of money and losing us hardcore in the process. Do I care? Not really, I have my DS, 360, PC, and PS3 for my hardcore fill.

[MikeWolfskin]

I've always paid for Nintendo for they’re magical games souly. Third party solveware or bad titles don't change that. In fact Nintendo's new strangely doesn’t bug me at all, it's third party as always that make me mad. As Nismo was saying I have my Personal Compacter, Nintendo DS and Microsoft Xbox 360 for hardcore gamer titles. I'm happy for Nintendo because there making money and staying alive while keeping me happy for what I payed 250$ for!For what I stayed out 24 hours inline as number one in my town for! There games!

[Idol Australian]

I am quite happy as it seems that Ningtendo's growth has paralleled mine.

When I was younger and at school, I had much more time for gaming. Now that I am at uni and working, I have less time for gaming and the games that are being released are good.

As always, spend your money on the good games so that more get made. If people didn't but the bad ones, then the publishers and developers will work harder to make better games.

For the people wanting more of the "core" games, we already have a mario platformer, Metroid Prime 3, Mario Kart, Smash Brothers and Zelda. That is what the cube got over its lifetime (5 years) and we got it in uner 2 on the Wii.

Having said that, now is the time for Nintendo to come out swinging with some new/relaunched IPs. They have gone through their main ones, so now is time for some more Pikmin, Kid Icarus and Donkey Kong.

I think what so many people are forgetting is that Nintendo is a business and the only purpose of their existence is to make money for their share holders. If their new direction is making them millions, then they will stick to it. When they are making so much money of a group of people that has lots to spend, why try to make another group happy that has already deserted you for other pastures?

[blokeymon]

Good: They're getting a new audience and bringing gaming to those who wouldn't normally pick up a controller

Bad: With this, they're turning their backs on the gaming base that propelled them into success.

[HGW XX/7]

Good. Because it doesn't effect me, or other non-Nintendo fans in any way.

[MR EPIC]

For the people wanting more of the "core" games, we already have a mario platformer, Metroid Prime 3, Mario Kart, Smash Brothers and Zelda. That is what the cube got over its lifetime (5 years) and we got it in uner 2 on the Wii.

Not to mention Fire Emblem and Battalion Wars 2.

Having said that, now is the time for Nintendo to come out swinging with some new/relaunched IPs. They have gone through their main ones, so now is time for some more Pikmin, Kid Icarus and Donkey Kong.

Captain Rainbow says "Hi". :)

[HGW XX/7]

Captain Rainbow says "Hi". :)
I think he'd do something a little more flambouyant than just say "Hi". :D

[ReaganYouth]

It's good if you're ten ;)

Care to elaborate? Because if this boils down to the "Nintendo is for kids" argument (again) I'm going to gouge my eyes out.

[Rensa]

^ She's just winding you up, matey :P

The Wii fits me pretty well right now. I only buy games occasionally at present and enjoy trawling through the VC catalogues. Soon, when I have more money, I'll complement it with another console (it's not like I'm tight on spare time, lawl), but for now, it fits my gaming needs fine :)

[ReaganYouth]

^ She's just winding you up, matey :P

Why me, though?

[HGW XX/7]

Why me, though?

'Cause Ninty fans are easy targets for it. It's not malicious, it's just kinda funny when the reaction is so spectacular sometimes. Don't take it personally 'cause it isn't personal.

[ReaganYouth]

Only difference is I don't explode when someone criticizes Nintendo. I do a lot of that myself. But the kiddie argument is annoying, even when it's applied to a game that has nothing to do with Nintendo (like Katamari and stuff like that).

[HGW XX/7]

I tend to file the kiddy argument under ignorance usually.

[Rensa]

Why me, though?
Only difference is I don't explode when someone criticizes Nintendo. I do a lot of that myself. But the kiddie argument is annoying, even when it's applied to a game that has nothing to do with Nintendo (like Katamari and stuff like that).
Ah, but it wasn't you. She was just laying some bait, and you were the silly sod who took it :P

[Smokey]

From a business standpoint, Nintendo couldn't be doing better. Regrettably, some Nintendo fans feel snubbed by the new direction, but as it has been said, Nintendo is a business that makes money, and when something as profitable as the Wii is around, they're going to stick with it, not change things for a small group.

As for myself, I'm not too invested in Nintendo right now. I play my 360 a lot more than my Wii currently, so I'm rather satisfied with how things are working out right now.

[DEATHSTAR]

I'm kind of indifferent. I will say that if the consoles direction suited me personally I'd have one. I don't and that doesn't affect them or me all that much. Great to see them climb from near ruin, sad that so many gamers that prayed for that day feel pissed on during the celebration.

[blokeymon]

I think the direction Nintendo are taking is kinda like that little nursery rhyme about the little girl with the little curl in her hair.

When they're good, they're very very good, but when they're bad, they're horrid.

Saying that, the only Nintendo franchise I've played on Wii and enjoyed 100% is Warioware: Smooth Moves. Everything else (Galaxy, Corruption, etc) has let me down in one way or another. Warioware was, to me, perfect in every single way.

[thegamecubist]

Good, because as a business they're making money, and as a member of the gaming community they're telling us that maybe, just maybe, we're moving too fast and need to step back and just play for the sake of playing. Not because we need sophisticated combat, totally real cities or physics so real that it could be a textbook. Not that sophisticated combat, totally real cities or physics so real that it could be a textbook is bad-hell, I enjoy those games-but the new direction reminds me of the fact that there can still be fun without these things.

Wii Sports is a game so bare you expect to find it in a cereal box; but it still manages to be fun because of it. There is not "why can I shoot through this wall and not that one", no "why can my car not get damaged"; there is a court, a ball and a makeshift raquet. Now play. It doesn't exactly meet the standard of what reviewers expect from a game but it is still ridiculously fun.

I remember in the latest MaxKom, WWRU was explaining the tournament rules of SSBB and Mike is just like "Why so serious?" SSBB is still an overweight, overthought tribute to the fans, but in its gameplay, it still manages that spirit of "here's what you have to do; now play."

I'm not saying all gaming has to follow this path-we need "cinematic" games in order to show what this medium is capable of on that end of the scale, too-but we need this stripped-down gaming as contrast, as a way to show what gameplay itself can provide. As an industry, we've always thought gaming has to bigger, with better music, FMV, voice overs, slick HUDs, etc, to become better. We can put all of these things on top of rather a weak game structure (see: Assassin's Creed) and we end up with a game people are reluctant to dismiss. Then we get Wii Sports, with none of the fat but pure gameplay and we end up with a game people are reluctant to dismiss. What's better? It's hard to say, and this is exactly why we need this direction-we need to broaden what we see as fun, instead of narrow down the definition of a game.

The problem is, instead of broadening, you have companies latching on to Wii Sports and going in the traditional direction of "adding more ****". So while Nintendo has the concept right, people are just going back to what they know.

[/pretentious babbling]

[MAX]

Good for them, bad for whomever doesn't like it?

[Smokey]

^^Absolutely. Both ends of the spectrum are needed, and so long as there's a balance, I for one have no problem with the current direction of the industry.

[Tanooki]

Yes, mostly and bad for people a little too full of themselves. Nintendo has given us what we got last gen mostly so far and in a hell of a lot shorter amount of time span. They've also broadened their support matrix, finally added net play(etc), other features built in, and the shop. All these allow both long timers and new types to get something fun to do and has broadened their base and support. The down side though is that their PR sucks, and they mostly play to the iPod crowd who are trendy and get into catchy things and the media they put out often comes off one sided which ticks off quite a few classic Nintendo players. The fact they aren't just sucking up to the Nintendo core has some of their players too crying like babies that it's unfair and they're ignored when they're clearly not. They're just not getting all the press thrown exclusively at them anymore so it's like crack baby withdrawl symptoms.

I'd say they're 85% good and 15% bad just because their PR outlet on the whole sucks and well depending who you ask they were late into the netplay thing and still late getting into HD.

I will say though off blokey's post, I'm mixed on loving what came out so far 1st party a bit. Mario Galaxy was the best 3D mario to me, or at least damn well right there with SM64 and I should throw in Metroid as being outright excellent over the last two(control on excelling reason.) Thing is, perhaps I moved on but Smash Bros and Mario Kart bored the piss out of me, and every time I want to trade something in I keep giving those 2 boxes the hard stare. :\ I also keep forgetting to grab Wario Ware too...bad me.

[Lizzaroni]

Helloooooooooo, I winked!

[ReaganYouth]

^It just felt like you were baiting me, that's all.

[Coral]

After playing Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess I forgot about them completely. Even thought I didnt finish Sunshine or OoT there were way more memorable momments in those games than Nintendos current version. Also Based off of a close friends impressions MP3 also was very forgettable. Pushing out your three hardest-corest titles in a sorta timeframe when youre 10x as successful as last generation isnt enough, especially since they werent as good or inspired as your last offerings.

Im sure the delusional - "I dont have too much time to play games anymore so what wii offers is just fine for me" crowd will disagree, but I personally dont take their opinions seriously.

[MAX]

^It just felt like you were masturbaiting me, that's all.

fixed

[ReaganYouth]

^Hey! My keyboard is gooey enough as it is!

[DEATHSTAR]

Yes, mostly and bad for people a little too full of themselves. Nintendo has given us what we got last gen mostly so far and in a hell of a lot shorter amount of time span. They've also broadened their support matrix, finally added net play(etc), other features built in, and the shop. All these allow both long timers and new types to get something fun to do and has broadened their base and support. The down side though is that their PR sucks, and they mostly play to the iPod crowd who are trendy and get into catchy things and the media they put out often comes off one sided which ticks off quite a few classic Nintendo players. The fact they aren't just sucking up to the Nintendo core has some of their players too crying like babies that it's unfair and they're ignored when they're clearly not. They're just not getting all the press thrown exclusively at them anymore so it's like crack baby withdrawl symptoms.

I'd say they're 85% good and 15% bad just because their PR outlet on the whole sucks and well depending who you ask they were late into the netplay thing and still late getting into HD.

I will say though off blokey's post, I'm mixed on loving what came out so far 1st party a bit. Mario Galaxy was the best 3D mario to me, or at least damn well right there with SM64 and I should throw in Metroid as being outright excellent over the last two(control on excelling reason.) Thing is, perhaps I moved on but Smash Bros and Mario Kart bored the piss out of me, and every time I want to trade something in I keep giving those 2 boxes the hard stare. :\ I also keep forgetting to grab Wario Ware too...bad me.

I'm reluctant to paint with such a broad stroke, some people that owned cubes and N64's weren't happy with Nintendo's direction or what they were given then and just stuck it out. Some of those people are not happy with the direction now so that doesn't make them full of themselves, just full of Nintendo for the moment.

[ReaganYouth]

Tanooki does have a point, sort of. A good number of the people complaining about it aren't complaining about it because of "casual gamers". A lot of them are complaining because they're Sony/MS fanboys. That should go without saying, though.

I just wish gamers didn't have to make these "console wars" into a stupid popularity contest. All it does is make people feel bad about their gaming choices.

[Wii Will Rock U]

Yes, Nintendo's new direction is fantastic. End of story.

[ReaganYouth]

Yes, Nintendo's new direction is fantastic. End of story.

Did my thread rub you the wrong way? Because you seem kinda angry about it.

[Coral]

Its funny when people who own only a Nintendo system, label other people fanboys when those people have often owned Nintendo consoles aswell as the others. Not mentioning names, but its something quite common.

Its also funny how attitudes change. I remember all the scrutiny I faced when i joined here for getting a 360 and owning an Xbox. Dreamcast 360, worst launch ever, its gonna flop, Online gamers have no lives, Fanboy, Nintendo-hater.

[MR EPIC]

I agree with Coral Reagan. The people you refer to "fanboys" are what most consider to be the traditional core gamer. I think we can agree that most people who own Wii don't represent the core gamer and to label them "fanboys" is naive.

[ReaganYouth]

I don't disagree with you guys, but you're missing my point. I'm just pointing out that some of the Wii hate comes from Sony and MS fanboys who would hate the Wii regardless of it's pros/cons. Just like PS3 hate comes from Nintendo and MS fanboys, and 360 hate comes from Nintendo and Sony fanboys who would do the same thing. I didn't mean to make any generalizations, and I'm sorry if it appeared that way.

BTW, we're all traditional core gamers (I think). Your gamer status isn't defined by what platforms you own. And also, I own a 360, and I love it and my Wii the same.

[MR EPIC]

BTW, we're all traditional core gamers (I think). Your gamer status isn't defined by what platforms you own. And also, I own a 360, and I love it and my Wii the same.

I would have to disagree with that Reagan. For example: a traditional FPS gamer is typically going to play that genre on a PC or a system like the Xbox 360. The same can be said for other types of traditional genres, where the main interest is going to be in online, nice visuals, and a standard control pad. Also, Nintendo wanted to be anything but traditional this generation and they've even come out and said as much. So how can you now say that people who bought the Wii did so in order to get another traditional experience? Those two thoughts contradict each other and I feel that my point still stands.

[ReaganYouth]

I would have to disagree with that Reagan. For example: a traditional FPS gamer is typically going to play that genre on a PC or a system like the Xbox 360. The same can be said for other types of traditional genres, where the main interest is going to be in online, nice visuals, and a standard control pad. Also, Nintendo wanted to be anything but traditional this generation and they've even come out and said as much. So how can you now say that people who bought the Wii did so in order to get another traditional experience? Those two thoughts contradict each other and I feel that my point still stands.

All I was saying is that owning a Wii doesn't make someone casual. Just like owning a 360 doesn't make you hardcore. Owning a PS3 doesn't make you hardcore either. It depends on the individual and whether or not gaming is a big part of their lives, much like gaming is a big part of our lives (we wouldn't be here otherwise). Now do you see my point?

[MR EPIC]

Yes but I wasn't calling Wii gamers "casual", I was implying that they (like Nintendo) are searching for an alternative method of gaming as opposed to traditional.

[ReaganYouth]

^Oh, well then that's different. :P

[MR EPIC]

C'mon, this is the War Room. You can do better than that. ;)

[ReaganYouth]

I don't have any arguments left. We pretty much agree with each other now.

I was just trying to say that not all of the Wii hate is justified. Some of it is, but not all of it.

[AzureNightmareX]

Any amount of hate towards Nintendo is about as justified as Russia's invasion of Georgia.

[HGW XX/7]

Any amount of hate towards Nintendo is about as justified as Russia's invasion of Georgia.

Because Nintendo's new direction caused Russia to invade Georgia.

I'd say that's a good reason to hate Nintendo. Little did we know that Russia as a nation are huge Kid Icarus fans and they got some info stating that Georgia is the reason why it was ditched for Wii Music this E3. Who knew it'd cause all this?

[Tanooki]

Har har...he's saying that the hating on Nintendo is not justified anymore than Russias sorry hate and excuse for rolling over that little country. Modern news like comparison and a pretty good one too.

[MAX]

Any amount of hate towards Nintendo is about as justified as Russia's invasion of Georgia.


Good news reference, little shaky on the the execution and dismount.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/RF242275.jpg?size=572&uid=%7BE20211C7-C022-46EF-8DE4-786A7AFD5E1B%7D

[Rorshach]

I don't hate their new direction, it's just that it doesn't appeal at all to me. I do dislike them for constantly saying they're gonna' give us "hardcore games" when they mean "Wii Music"

[Sascha-AMN]

Good for Nintendo and in the short run good for Nintendo fans too, not so much for anyone else.

[Luis Sera]

I dont have a problem with Nintendos success. I do have a problem with them originally trying to label themselves as not being in competition with the rest, but now that theyre wining, they are competing with MS and Sony and were the best, and what were doing is the best for everyone. Youre not. Considering the Wiis success, it did not have to be as underpowered as it is. I believe it could have been a 360 in terms of power, and they would be even further in first place. Why, because more core gamers would own one, and the casuals who were shelling out big bucks to get one would have bought it.

Anyways, my main issue is with the Nintendo Diehards who want the Core gamers to believe that their favourite system is doing something amazing. It isnt. The reviews prove this. Motion controls havent made the quality of any Wii game better than any other game. Quite often they make them worse. Im sorry if this comes off as a rant to anyone, but its very annoying when people talk about "potential". Random games that are made for the wii that if announced for other systems would be ignored by some people, all of a sudden have all this potential. Red Steel had so much "potential" and was going to be the best example of controls in an fps right? Not the case. Just stop it and be realistic about games like everyone else.iawtp

When it comes to this matter most Nintendo fans are being deliberately obtuse. There are so many things Nintendo does that fans just turn a blind eye to or make excuses for. Their refusal to provide decent online, for example, is ****ing infuriating. And that's just one example. They're still making good games but that's because they're Nintendo, it's hardly a result of the 'new direction.' However I'd also like to append that I think gaming as a whole isn't that impressive at the moment, though perhaps that has as much to do with me as it does the state of gaming.

They **** up Zelda and that may be it for me, as consoles cost money ya know.

[Coral]

Saschas holding back. I want to see your Mounty Rage.

[Smokey]

Saschas holding back. I want to see your Full Monty Rage.

Fixed. Boy, don't you hate it when people don't say what they mean?:P

[Lucas]

God I've missed the War Room.

Frankly, when I'm in a rational mood, I see that Nintendo has been pretty good to us. Any other company would have dropped the fanbase flat on their ass a year ago. Nintendo has a heritage and they feel they need to continue to deliver to their base. In the long run, that will serve them well because eventually their little non-gamer bubble will burst once somebody else figures out Nintendo's formula and clones it.

EAD Tokyo wanted to make a simple non-gamer game after DK: Jungle Beat. Miyamoto forced them into Mario Galaxy. Galaxy sold a lot, but a Wii "Something" game would have sold three times more. The simple fact is Miyamoto and Iwata (with their history of making games for the base for 20 years) are inclined to want to please us and realize we are their safety net. I firmly believe that if Yamauchi was still running the company, he would have told us all to GTFO the moment Wii Play's sales hit 6,000,000.

So yeah. The new direction sucks, but we're still very lucky to have it as good as we do. Hell, a real 2D Wario game is coming out next month for the first time since 2001. I have no reason to complain.

[ReaganYouth]

Actually, if Yamauchi was still president, he would've gone down the same path as Sony and Microsoft. And they'd probably still be in 3rd place worldwide. But in his defense, he would have never allowed all this bargain bin trash from Ubi and their no-name contemporaries to flood the Wii.

[MR EPIC]

Would Yamauichi have liked Carnival Games?

[ReaganYouth]

As much as CG doesn't appeal to me personally, by most accounts it's still a quality title. I was thinking about Ninjabread Man and Anubis 2 (you know, truly awful games that would make certain PSOne and Atari 2600 games blush) when I made that post.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

If Yamauchi was still in charge, they wouldn't just be in third place, but most of their fanbase would have dissipated and there would have been ALOT more things for you all to complain about.

Simply put, Nintendo needed to do this for its own good and survival. As a Nintendo fan I feel like I've gotten some of the best Nintendo games in recent memory (Galaxy, Brawl, Corruption, Twilight Princess, Wii Sports, Kart), and its given me the chance to try out a different brand of gaming too. I don't feel like I'm not being catered to, because obviously there's been more first party Nintendo games in such a small timespan than ever before, so that's nothing to sulk about personally. But Nintendo fans are some of the more hypocritical folks in the industry right now, so I wouldn't expect anything other than whining from them. Oh well; they're missing out.

[ReaganYouth]

^I think people are complaining because 3rd party support is still bad. There's nothing to tide people over until the next big Nintendo core release, even for me.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

^I think people are complaining because 3rd party support is still bad. There's nothing to tide people over until the next big Nintendo core release, even for me.

I disagree. First of all, by Nintendo console standards, third party support is the strongest it's been since the SNES. Secondly, I think Nintendo fans choose not to embrace third party games because they've decided that they just aren't as high quality as Nintendo's own efforts (which applies to alot of games, but not to all). People haven't payed attention to the fact that there ARE high quality third party games on the Wii, but if those had the Nintendo label on them, they would have sold millions. So I'm not buying the whole "third party support is bad/there are no games to play" schtick because it's obviously not that true.

[ReaganYouth]

I disagree. First of all, by Nintendo console standards, third party support is the strongest it's been since the SNES. Secondly, I think Nintendo fans choose not to embrace third party games because they've decided that they just aren't as high quality as Nintendo's own efforts (which applies to alot of games, but not to all). People haven't payed attention to the fact that there ARE high quality third party games on the Wii, but if those had the Nintendo label on them, they would have sold millions. So I'm not buying the whole "third party support is bad/there are no games to play" schtick because it's obviously not that true.

Maybe "bad" is the wrong term. More like "disappointing for a 1st place console". It's better than the atrocious support GC and especially N64 received, I'll give you that. But for a 1st place console, it should be getting much more than it is.

That said, I think the 360 and PS3 lineups are equally bad. They just have prettier graphics and not as much shovelware. :/

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Maybe "bad" is the wrong term. More like "disappointing for a 1st place console". It's better than the atrocious support GC and especially N64 received, I'll give you that. But for a 1st place console, it should be getting much more than it is.

I agree; the Wii still has to prove itself as a platform worth developing for, but from the third party announcements over the past 6 months, it's showing that this fad stigma is slowly washing off. But you still shouldn't write off all the quality third party games that have already released, and there are plenty. There aren't as many as there could/should be, but like you said in another thread, if there are less games out there, that means you get to spend more time with each, which is something you embraced with the N64... so you could embrace the same thing here ;)

[ReaganYouth]

I agree; the Wii still has to prove itself as a platform worth developing for, but from the third party announcements over the past 6 months, it's showing that this fad stigma is slowly washing off. But you still shouldn't write off all the quality third party games that have already released, and there are plenty. There aren't as many as there could/should be, but like you said in another thread, if there are less games out there, that means you get to spend more time with each, which is something you embraced with the N64... so you could embrace the same thing here ;)

The reason I loved N64 as much as I did, is because despite it's painfully small size, it hosted one of the best gaming libraries of all time. Second only to SNES in my opinion. Nintendo and Rare were at the top of their game on N64, and most games that they put out were some of the most memorable games I've ever played. I mean come on, it had Super Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Yoshi's Story (yeah I liked it, but there still isn't a Wii version! :angry: ), Banjo-Kazooie and Tooie, Killer Instinct Gold, the forever beautiful Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. And despite the relatively meager 3rd party support, it had gems like Rayman 2, Mischief Makers, Bomberman 64, Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon, Castlevania 64, etc.

Gamecube's 1st party games were slightly worse, but still great games nonetheless. They lost Rare (who were going downhill anyway), but garnered better 3rd party support with Resident Evil 4, Tales of Symphonia, Soul Calibur 2, Viewtiful Joe, Billy Hatcher, Baten Kaitos, etc. So in the end, it was all worth it.

Wii might be able to top all that by the end of it's life, but I doubt it. It does have some promising games coming in the future, so let's hope they turn out for the best (and the shovelware goes away).

[MR EPIC]

I feel like we've had this discussion all day every day for the past 3 months. Wii support is definitely getting better and certain developers are starting to the platform more seriously. But we have to realize that the system has it's limits, as we're seeing with Chop Till You Drop. The system not only lacks graphical capability but also processing power. So there will always be a good portion of developers (especially those that did/do develop for PC) who are going to shy away from the system for that reason. There is a lot of money to be made on Wii, but not for all genres and not for all developers. Racers, fighters, MMOs and other genres just won't do well on the platform in most cases.

So I've personally just accepted that fact and it bugs me when people go ahead and blame it all on "lazy" or "snobby" developers. As DEATHSTAR said some months ago "Nintendo decided to bring a knife to a gun fight" and as Coral has said many times "It's not our fault nor the developers' fault that Nintendo decided to make an underpowered system". Many of you believe that Nintendo had to go in the direction it did, but who's to say they couldn't have added more power to the innovative remote and maybe have taken a loss for a time after launch? The whole "Wii sells because it's cheap" idea is complete BS, as you might remember even at launch some of the bundles that were selling anywhere from $450-$700 for the Wii, accessories and some games. Even now with the 360 being nearly as cheap (or cheaper for some models) than the Wii, Nintendo's system continues to sell. My point is, although Nintendo is rolling in the dough and many of us are happy to see that, they are also partly responsible for the lack of high quality 3rd party support they're getting because of certain decisions they chose to make (lack of power, no storage device, sub-par online service).

In summary: I love my Wii to death, but I'm not going to fool myself into believing that we'll see games like Bio-Shock, Assassin's Creed, Gears or War, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, and Halo on it. We'll just have to carry on with our PS3s, 360s, DSes, and PSPs, while we wait for 1st party offerings and others like Order Up, Chocobo's Dungeon, The Conduit, Monster Hunter, Fatal Frame, etc...Support isn't likely to get much better than that and the sooner some of you realize that the sooner you can stop taking your headache pills.

[ReaganYouth]

I feel like we've had this discussion all day every day for the past 3 months. Wii support is definitely getting better and certain developers are starting to the platform more seriously. But we have to realize that the system has it's limits, as we're seeing with Chop Till You Drop. The system not only lacks graphical capability but also processing power. So there will always be a good portion of developers (especially those that did/do develop for PC) who are going to shy away from the system for that reason. There is a lot of money to be made on Wii, but not for all genres and not for all developers. Racers, fighters, MMOs and other genres just won't do well on the platform in most cases.

So I've personally just accepted that fact and it bugs me when people go ahead and blame it all on "lazy" or "snobby" developers. As DEATHSTAR said some months ago "Nintendo decided to bring a knife to a gun fight" and as Coral has said many times "It's not our fault nor the developers' fault that Nintendo decided to make an underpowered system". Many of you believe that Nintendo had to go in the direction it did, but who's to say they couldn't have added more power to the innovative remote and maybe have taken a loss for a time after launch? The whole "Wii sells because it's cheap" idea is complete BS, as you might remember even at launch some of the bundles that were selling anywhere from $450-$700 for the Wii, accessories and some games. Even now with the 360 being nearly as cheap (or cheaper for some models) than the Wii, Nintendo's system continues to sell. My point is, although Nintendo is rolling in the dough and many of us are happy to see that, they are also partly responsible for the lack of high quality 3rd party support they're getting because of certain decisions they chose to make (lack of power, no storage device, sub-par online service).

In summary: I love my Wii to death, but I'm not going to fool myself into believing that we'll see games like Bio-Shock, Assassin's Creed, Gears or War, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, and Halo on it. We'll just have to carry on with our PS3s, 360s, DSes, and PSPs, while we wait for 1st party offerings and others like Order Up, Chocobo's Dungeon, The Conduit, Monster Hunter, Fatal Frame, etc...Support isn't likely to get much better than that and the sooner some of you realize that the sooner you can stop taking your headache pills.

I never said anything like that. At least not here. Maybe if you read my posts, you'd see that.

Wii might be able to top all that by the end of it's life, but I doubt it. It does have some promising games coming in the future, so let's hope they turn out for the best (and the shovelware goes away).

^I think people are complaining because 3rd party support is still bad. There's nothing to tide people over until the next big Nintendo core release, even for me.

I hate it when people tell me I'm living in denial, because I'm not denying anything.

Sorry about flying off the handle. You guys still rawk, but I'm a little stressed out lately.

[Smokey]

This may be somewhat off-topic, but that comment about not seeing Final Fantasy on the Wii reminded me of Kingdom Hearts. Is KH3 on Wii still just wishful thinking at this point, or has Square made any announcements?

[MR EPIC]

Reagan - I read your post and mine was just a general sentiment aimed at what I've seen a lot of lately from a few different posters in the gaming forums.

[Lucas]

^I think people are complaining because 3rd party support is still bad. There's nothing to tide people over until the next big Nintendo core release, even for me.

Who buys Nintendo consoles to complain about third party support?

[ReaganYouth]

Who buys Nintendo consoles to complain about third party support?

Apparently a lot of people do. Otherwise the Wii wouldn't be getting so much hate.

And what about SNES?

[Tanooki]

A few confused and bordering arrogant posts I see on Nintendo but I like a lot of what I've read so far since my last post, in particular that back and forward there with Zeidan as he's right. They did what they had to, had the old fart been sticking in they'd be in far worse shape still, and that they're finally getting some good 3rd party attention, just not a fair amount yet as it seems but much nicer.

[MR EPIC]

No confusion, no arrogance, just reality and truth. You'd do well to accept as much Jeff. I've seen you blame third parties as much as anybody else and for the reasons I outlined Nintendo just can't expect the level of support that the other companies are getting. Nintendo could have made a more powerful system and still included motion controls. I don't know if you've read Blackout's posts (new guy) but he's pretty much hit the nail on the head with his first few. His best point being that as an online gamer people are simply NOT going to come to Wii for such an experience but rather to the Xbox 360. And I'm adding to that, since many of today's games are online-based in some way there's another example of how Nintendo is shooting themselves in the foot. They're also shooting themselves in the foot with no HDD or by not at least allowing for HDD support. Countless developers had said straight up that if the system had such capabilities they could have added DLC and even some XBLA games would have already shown up on the system.

[Tanooki]

Oooh picking on me now eh? Oh well. I realize and am not blind the Wii isn't on the same horsepower level of the other two, but full blame is very fairly well laid on 3rd parties for more than less not even attempting a good effort with the hardware. It's a given Wii could have been more beefy, but Nintendo won't sell at a loss and up until Wii they had even less of a reason after the last previous decade worth of reasons not to as their profit level alone kept them in business.

Can't and won't argue the hard drive bit as it's just f'n incompetent of them to keep pissing that away and is why right now I'm not enjoying Neo Turf Masters as I don't have the room which you do know I wanted. As far as online goes the only fault of Nintendo is the stupid friends codes as the rest of it they leave up to 3rd parties how they want to deal with it. They wont' force someone to include it, but they can use the crap codes or do what EA did smartly with the lobby that's so fun to use in MOHH2 compared.

Ultimately it's really a mix, but more blame does need to be laid on 3rd parties for just not putting up anything when the numbers there justify at least a good effort and not some passable or less halfassing quite a few have so far.

[MR EPIC]

No, I wasn't picking on you. And I agree with a decent part of your post. I'm just asking for some of you guys to really think if it's realistic or not for some of these developers like Epic, Bethesda, etc... to really drop what they're doing and flock to Wii? Devs like Capcom and Ubi yes, but others are just used to working on a bigger palette and make money doing so.

[ReaganYouth]

No, I wasn't picking on you. And I agree with a decent part of your post. I'm just asking for some of you guys to really think if it's realistic or not for some of these developers like Epic, Bethesda, etc... to really drop what they're doing and flock to Wii? Devs like Capcom and Ubi yes, but others are just used to working on a bigger palette and make money doing so.

I honestly don't care what either of those devs do. Never cared for them, never will.

[MR EPIC]

It seems like I'm not getting my point across here so I'll just let it go for now. I was just trying to get people to be a bit more realistic with their Wii expectations and to accept the line-up for what it is and for what it's likely to be. Having 3 systems is really the way to go IMO.

[ReaganYouth]

It seems like I'm not getting my point across here so I'll just let it go for now. I was just trying to get people to be a bit more realistic with their Wii expectations and to accept the line-up for what it is and for what it's likely to be. Having 3 systems is really the way to go IMO.

No, I agree with you. I just don't care for those two devs in particular.

[MR EPIC]

Maybe those weren't great examples of developers whom Wii owners would like to see bring their projects to the system, but there are other big name devs who are still either being stubborn or who just don't think the Wii could do their games justice. Even the PS2 a couple of times was snubbed in favor for the Xbox because of it's graphics and online service. I don't think anybody is singling out the Wii.

[ReaganYouth]

Now that I think about it, Lucas did have a point. Who really buys a Nintendo system for 3rd party games anyway?

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

So what's your defense now? :P

[ReaganYouth]

^Is that directed at me?

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Yas

Coz you said that the main complaint for you is that third party support is bad, and now you agree with Lucas that third party support doesn't matter.

[ReaganYouth]

Yeah, that's why I said "now that I think about it".

[JValone]

None of the current-gen consoles, imo, have enough to satisfy me by themselves. Nintendo's new direction, and the subsequent lack of 3rd party support, does not make it the only console that you'd feel was lacking if it was the only machine you owned. Now you may feel it is more lacking than the 360/PS3 (or both) but from my perspective all three are in the same boat and that is that I need at least two of them to be satisfied. For me that's Wii (Nintendo games) and PS3 (mulitplat + GoW/ICO/Insomniac/Naughty Dog).

This gen there really isn't an SNES/PS1/PS2-type machine that you could own by itself and still feel like you're getting the lion's share of great software. That isn't a Nintendo problem, everyone has that problem. I know that may sound like I'm just trying to soften the blow as far as Wii software is concerned, but honestly I'm not. I just think the Wii gets singled out far too much when neither the PS3/360 alone have enough to get you through this gen solo. The problem may be greater on Nintendo's console, depending on your tastes, but I think people are completely overlooking the industry-wide problem and instead going with the easy "damn you Nintendo! you ruined everything with the casualz!" approach to this blame game.

[Smokey]

I honestly don't care what either of those devs do. Never cared for them, never will.

No GoW or Elder Scrolls for you then, huh?

I agree with JValone in that each console failed to become THE console of this gen, as it were.

[MR EPIC]

Agree with JV Smokey? I've said as much about a million times already in this thread and others. In order to get the complete experience this generation you've got to own all three consoles.

And JV - Where do you see Nintendo getting the majority of the blame? Certainly not here on these forums. We have so many damn Nintendo defenders around here (who's arguments are virtually transparent now) that you'd think they were on staff. Nintendo should take some blame for 1. Having an underpowered system 2. Not having an HDD and 3. Having a weak online component. Had they opted for at least 2 of the 3 choices their third party support would most likely be leagues above what it is now.

[Smokey]

Didn't really catch that in this thread, to be honest. As for the other times, I must have thought that line of thinking was too intelligent for you.:P

[MR EPIC]

Bastard! You must have caught wind of the comments I made about you in the podcast. ;)

[ReaganYouth]

Actually, I completely agree with JValone. I know I wouldn't be satisfied with just a PS3, 360, or Wii. All 3 libraries are lacking on their own.

It's true, there's more Nintendo fans on here than Sony and Microsoft. But you could also say there's more Sony fans on NeoGAF and more MS fans on Joystiq. Each site has their own fanboy "slant" imo. That's why fanboys of one creed usually flock to one place. If that even makes any sense.

[HGW XX/7]

Actually, I completely agree with JValone. I know I wouldn't be satisfied with just a PS3, 360, or Wii. All 3 libraries are lacking on their own.

It's true, there's more Nintendo fans on here than Sony and Microsoft. But you could also say there's more Sony fans on NeoGAF and more MS fans on Joystiq. Each site has their own fanboy "slant" imo. That's why fanboys of one creed usually flock to one place. If that even makes any sense.

Which is absolutely stupid, because they obviously don't believe in their opinion that much if some other fanboy can threaten them into a rage.

I'd say a majority here are fairly neutral with a slight nintendo bias. Then there's the few who are 100% for one camp or the other.

[Z.E.I.D.A.N]

Well, there definitely isn't a PS2 of this generation, but I think it's awesome that all three consoles have a (generally) equal amount of GOOD content and each have their fair share of exclusive functionality and perks. I think this is a healthy thing for the industry and more diversity never really hurt anybody.

And the whole "no console by itself can satisfy me" is a little bit strange to hear. Alot of you guys (myself included) probably either had just an Xbox or just a Gamecube through most of the generation, two consoles that, to me, pale in comparison to their successors in terms of content/fun/support. So either those people are playing more now than they did last generation, or you were all PS2 owners.

[ReaganYouth]

Which is absolutely stupid, because they obviously don't believe in their opinion that much if some other fanboy can threaten them into a rage.

I'd say a majority here are fairly neutral with a slight nintendo bias. Then there's the few who are 100% for one camp or the other.

I suppose I'm the latter, right?

[Smokey]

Bastard! You must have caught wind of the comments I made about you in the podcast. ;)

You're damn right I did. One of these days I'll have to be on the podcast to defend myself "in person", if you will.:D

[JValone]

Yeah, Mr Epic has been touting the need for at least two consoles this generation way before I brought it up. It's not my idea or anything. Though he seems to have a distaste for multiplatform titles, which doesn't seem to jive, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Epic: I don't see the majority of the blame falling on Nintendo necessarily on this board (though there are certain days, especially post-E3 08) but more so across the rest of the net. A very large chunk of the core gamer community has really torn into the Wii for a perceived inability to provide enough software to be a lone console of choice yet that is never mentioned about the 360 (at least not that I have seen) on any major sites. The PS3 is also spared, in comparison to the Wii, but it does come up occasionally.

This forum is obviously a bit more Nintendo leaning than most so I think that's why it's less of an issue here. But NeoGAF, IGN boards, and numerous other places are filled with people who become disenchanted with the Wii and are immediately bombarded with comment after comment of "sell it for a 360!" as if that could actually solve the problem. That person might have less of a problem, if they enjoy the 360's lineup as much as many others do, but what I'd prefer people to say in such a situation is not "sell Wii for 360/PS3" but rather "You've got to have at least two to be happy, having just one will do nothing but relocate your dilemma."

Basically I'm just agreeing with the sentiment you've been pushing for awhile, I just feel like not enough gamers have really picked up on it. The 360 seems to have an edge in the American gaming (not mainstream, but gaming)press as far as hype and coverage goes, PS3 second, and Wii third. For this reason a lot of enthusiasts try to shove that platform down the throat of any unhappy Wii/PS3 owner that may come along as if it's the answer to all there problems. It has an arguably better lineup than all competitors, but the PS2/PS1/SNES library just destroys it in comparison and it isn't even close. It's a problem, a lack of a central platform for amazing software, that I think gets glosses over way too much in the community. If the 360 ends this generation with the best lineup, which looks very possible, the best software library this cycle is going to make the entire generation look really pathetic in comparison to predecessors. I'm not even saying that this generation is inferior to the past, but the quality is a lot less centralized.

I can see Nintendo taking blame for online, especially when PSN is so much better and also free. To a lesser extent I can see them taking blame for not creating an HD console, but I think that's sort of a cop-out for many haters within the development community (especially Epic, who are not unbiased at all because they are extremely invested in Unreal 3) as opposed to something that matters 100% of the time. The last thing, HDD, I completely disagree with. What games, other than Rock Band, require an HDD to get the majority of enjoyment? Not many on the 360, thanks to the Arcade, and not many on PS3 despite it being standard. HDD is more of a problem for us enthusiast consumers, not so much the development community, because they've been wrestling with a similar conundrum with 360 Arcade so it's not as if Nintendo is throwing them something new.

[ReaganYouth]

I don't know why EPIC hates multiplatform games. I understand that sometimes it lowers the quality of a game, but some games like Resident Evil 4, Street Fighter 2, etc. were awesome on all the platforms they released on. But to each his own.

[Tanooki]

Going to have to agree there pretty much with JV on that last paragraph of his just a jump up above. Nintendo is to blame for online entirely due to friends codes, they can die. HD, that mostly is just dev'r snottiness more than reality for many but a few like Epic games just like to go overkill so whatever does the most they'll suck up to. I don't entirely agree with him on the HDD because I don't think it's just an enthusiast deal when you get a stupid 512MB block of space and all it takes is around 10 NeoGeo/N64 sized games and it's time to start erasing things...too small.

Way earlier addressing something Epic made to my last post I don't demand anything, also quite clear that people again like Epic Games will not jump into something that isn't the overkill machine they can exploit the most. My problem is with those with the tools and talent who are familiar and have worked with such level of stuff making more excuses about mythical proof X style of game won't sell (which still in many cases is not tested period or falsely so with shittily handled ports) on the Wii. I mean Capcom does a pretty good job of the cherry pick stunt giving RE4 (for a 2nd time) and the the other RE game, but you don't see any other key franchises pop up that would be welcomed like that Bionic Commando game or especially Street Fighter IV which has some evidence to support it would sell with the SF2 games doing the most units moved over the VC versus other formats. It's crap like that I get tweaked off about, not even bothering to try and passing the buck or making up stories. I'm not clueless as I damn well know Assassins Creed has no chance of running as do a few others in basically any form cut back to fully done...just too much there to get handled. Things that can be done, or licenses that can be worked with to make a unique title are just being passed up and it's just wrong.

[Coral]

Mmmmmmmm transparent.

[Tanooki]

Yes, you very much are. Your point? And for someone on probation I don't see how trolling does you any good.

[MR EPIC]

JV and Reagan - It's not that I outright "hate' multi-platform games, as there are many out there that should go in that direction. Examples would be some fighting games, movie games, sports games, and even a lot of racers. But complex games that take time to make like action games, adventure games, role playing games can lose some quality by the development team and resources being spread thin. Also, the latter types of game I mentioned tend to have more story and personality, two things which can give specific consoles what I like to call "personality". If Nintendo were willing would you guys like to see Mario, Samus, and Link on both MS and Sony platforms the way Sonic is? Quite frankly, while I was laughing at Sony when they lost exclusivity of FFXIII to MS (I don't like them as a company) I still felt that it should remain on a Sony system. Some games just feel right on certain platforms, why else do you think JRPGs have not sold well at all on the 360?

[Tanooki]

Personally I'd rather not/never see 1st party titles for whoever they're made for put on another system. The games and hardware are so intertwined in how the craft the stuff it just wouldn't be so nice elsewhere, much like how Sega's stuff turned almost universally to crap when the DC died and they converted to software only. They lost control of the hardware and all the inner working and understanding from their own R&D and so on, and with that they just had to try and figure out what something else could do with the incomplete docs 1st parties provide. Then if you want to add in ports, might as well butcher it up a bit more so everyone can share. That and well 1st party games are the bread and butter that keep people coming back to that system as a reason to get more.

[JValone]

I'm not really against multiplatform titles myself. I wouldn't be against Mario/Zelda/Metroid being on other platforms because I would think the quality would dip, I'd mind because it would a moronic move for Nintendo's console branch. I think that certain console-exclusive software is superior but I think a lot of that has to do with 1st party software on average being superior to 3rd party offerings. When a company like EAD, Bungie, or Team ICO has four to five years with one machine they can really get the most out of it. But 3rd parties such as Capcom or Konami usually don't max out hardware regardless of whether it's an exclusive game or not. I think if a company commits to one machine they make the most of it, so I can see your point there, but very few 3rd parties would have the guts to do that.

I guess I'm of the opinion that if a developer commits 100% to a platform their efforts will turn out superior. But if they commit one game to a platform, and another game exclusively to another platform, and so on, the results are largely unchanged because they never specialize anyway. If a team starts from scratch, whether the game is exclusive or not, it can't compare to a team with years of experience on specific hardware. The best 3rd party exclusives this generation imo are Gears, Mass Effect, and Bioshock. All of them are made by companies that basically specialize on the 360 at this point. I think being a specialist trumps being exclusive for one game, but I don't think this sort of specialist scenario is realistic in todays market unfortunately.

[Coral]

HD, that mostly is just dev'r snottiness more than reality for many but a few like Epic games just like to go overkill so whatever does the most they'll suck up to.
You're transparent because you actually think that games on 360, PS3, and PC are in HD because the developers are "snotty" and that a small number of gamers only play HD games for overkill. Do you not see how stupid that sounds? Thats an honest question. Do you only own an SD tv? Do you think that HD shouldn't be supported until every household in America has one? Your "few" happens to be at least the same amount of Wiis sold to date, so its clearly not a "few". Not to mention the people with Wiis who have HDtvs and would like to see the Wii support it.


Just a friendly word of advice Jeff, you might want to jump on the 360 bandwagon soon, because Im positive you dont want to be the last one still making foolish posts. And take your flame baits about probation's and trade them in for some EB store credit.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x291/coralispink/Avatars/8vnguv.gif

[Tanooki]

No you stooge I don't and I guess it doesn't surprise me someone with your issues would be so dense. I'm saying those who make nothing but shovelware and B-level crap for the Wii while not giving much of anything good to the leading system are being snotty. It's snotty to make up excuses about why something can't sell on a system when there's no hard evidence on many of the standard genres still to back it up.

I own a 26" Panasonic LCD tv that does I believe 1080i/720p. I think HD in this generation of systems was a forced and too early forced upon the market move, yet I don't think it should have waited until everyone had an HD set either. I have made that clear enough before in that I felt the next gen to come should have had it standard when the costs of entry for everyone from dev'r to consumer would have been less. So yah, I have a HD set and I could give a damn if my system does only 480p. The games are fun, the cabling makes it nice and sharp, and I enjoy what I have between it, the PSP I have, the DS, and my PC games on my new computer.

And no ...I don't think I'll quit my nudges either as long as you keep em up. You're still on my **** list until my request a good month ago is satisfied and I don't think that'll happen anytime soon right?

[MR EPIC]

Okay guys, I think it's getting a little too personal in here and I know you guys can get your points across without the insults. Why don't we all just have a drink on me and relax a little?

[Coral]

Were here, were queer, were loud, were proud!

[MR EPIC]

That's great.

[Tanooki]

Wow a complete shift from topic into your lifestyle. Why? He said to let it go.

[Smokey]

Were here, were queer, were loud, were proud!

"Were"? So what are you now?:)

[Coral]

"Were"? So what are you now?:)

'

thx

[Smokey]

You're welcome.:thumbs up:

[AzureNightmareX]

This thread = http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r158/azurenightmarex1/ap_mexico_accident_080603_mn.jpg

[Smokey]

I think a train wreck would be a more apt analogy here.

Just a rule for future consideration: Any thread that has to have more than one new thread created by the mods for off-topic posts should be closed and deleted.

[HGW XX/7]

Can't I just toil away at my dead-end nightshift job without having to come home to this? And Smokey, this was not an offshoot of the Dead Rising thread. This one was made by Reagan and never branched off.

Thread over.

[MR EPIC]

HGW - You have no idea all the crap I had to deal with last night all by my lonesome. I was a one man moderation show. :)